4 ms·

The recent uproar about the NEJM issue containing only marketing is the counterpoint. Dr Fung pointed out that there's no wonder people turn to GOOP when the sy

The recent uproar about the NEJM issue containing only marketing is the counterpoint. Dr Fung pointed out that there's no wonder people turn to GOOP when the system is so broken. So while I understand and appreciate your point, I don't think you understand how corrupted medicine has become. It's now a necessity to do your own research. Dr Wahls curing of her own MS would be another example. Edit: here's the goop tweet: https://twitter.com/drjasonfung/status/1095550994430058496?s=09 https://twitter.com/drjasonfung/status/1095550994430058496?s...

shakna 8y ago
By providing a suggestion, you're implying they haven't tried. I've spent ten years with a chronic disease with no known cause. I am currently on two trials. You are not capable of naming any suggestion that I have not heard, and that is common in the community. You don't appreciate my point - you're insulting by making your suggestions. You're suggesting that they haven't investigated something that affects every single part of their life.
- SteveCoast 8y ago
  I meet people all the time whose sole source of information is their doctor. And, I said 'FWIW' as the very first word. I realize this is the internet but that's a stretch to find an insult.
  - shakna 8y ago
    > I realize this is the internet but that's a stretch to find an insult. It's not. It's even in the damned article. If you can't understand that, you have even less business giving anyone advice, you're missing the humanity of the situation.
    - SteveCoast 8y ago
      You literally give unasked advice in your other thread. I'm not sure we can run open discussion boards with the principle that you can't insult anyone for any reason even unintentionally.
      - shakna 8y ago
        > I'm afraid I'm going to have to be a little rude here. > You may be approaching this with good intentions, but don't do this. I calmly asked you to stop a behaviour. The insult was only taken when you asserted your belief that I, a victim of the situation, is fundamentally wrong, and that you, a random stranger, have the right to do something people, not just myself but the author of the article and many others, find harmful. Open discussion will always bring conflict. That's not the problem here. The problem is you've told something causes conflict, and you aren't responding with sensitivity, or grace. I've attempted to explain to you the nuances of the behaviour, and why that may cause conflict.
        SteveCoast 8y ago
        > I calmly asked you to stop a behaviour. Then let me calmly ask you to stop. Chill. Go walk in the woods.
        shakna 8y ago
        I can't actually walk, so no thanks. But no, you haven't irritated me enough to be a concern, and I agree, the effort to convince someone who has no wish to understand is more than I can spare.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    I believe the concern here is that while the intentions to provide advice may be good, the actual result is harmful, and thus it is better not to provide advisement unless explicitly requested in the specific context of someone who has a chronic illness. The assumption of providing advisement is 1) your advice might be helpful, 2) advising isn't itself a harmful act, 3) you have something worth advising about. In the specific case of a chonic illness, the probability is high that all these assumptions are not correct. Therefore, advising a chronically ill person requires exceptional behavior compared to someone who is not chronically ill. It's also important that this(unwanted advice) is a common issue that adversely affects a person's QoL, as they are forced to re-address the same ground consistently when they already have limited productive resources.
    - nate_meurer 8y ago
      > adversely affects a person's QoL, as they are forced to re-address the same ground consistently when they already have limited productive resources. But that's not what happened here. Steve didn't prompt anyone for a response of any kind. He offered a quick one-liner of a suggestion. Shakna wasn't even part of that thread, and just dropped in to tell him to shut up. It's the internet man. You're quite free to disregard the advice.
      - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        Shakna was attempting to use a common social cue, criticism, to prevent Steve from continuing to apply inappropriate social behavior, especially relevant given that Shakna has a decade of experience in the nuances of social dynamics in the context of chronic illness. I interpreted Shakna's sharp rebuke as no different than any other expert informing someone that they're participating in highly ignorant behavior. By criticizing Shakna, you are also participating in a social cue to try and prevent Shakna from continuing to apply inappropriate social behavior (in this case, criticizing others unnecessarily). Does "It's the internet man. You're quite free to disregard Shakna's criticism." not apply also to you?
        nate_meurer 8y ago
  - astura 8y ago
    >I meet people all the time whose sole source of information is their doctor I seriously doubt that. Everyone who has a chronic illness is bombarded constantly by friends, family, acquaintances, and strangers with unsolicited "advice" as to how to cure their disease with diets, exercise, oils, herbs, craniosacral therapy, prayer, meditation, homeopathy, enemas, chiropractic adjustments, talk therapy, vitamins, supplements, and every other crazy thing you can think of.
- PakG1 8y ago
  As an objective third party, I think your chronic disease, your vast research of it all, and your corresponding frustration has warped your ability to have conversations with people who are less knowledgeable than you are. Where there is no ill intent, insults should not be taken. The insults are your own interpretation, there is no reason to take insult where none exists, especially when someone is trying to be helpful. Best to just shrug and say, "yeah, thanks, but researched this." When my users are trying to tell me what is causing a bug and they're drastically wrong, I don't feel insulted that they think I don't know my own system. I just smile and have a nice conversation with them. There is no point in picking fights, and the person trying to help is not the one picking the fight. I'm sorry for your chronic disease, and I can't imagine what it's like. I can't speak to that. But I believe you're taking it too negatively too personally when there's no need to do so. I imagine that isn't too great for personal happiness either.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    > Where there is no ill intent, insults should not be taken. I don't know if this is true even in the general case. It is entirely possible to insult someone with no ill intent, such as "you speak well for a black" or "you're funny for a female" or "you're alright for a homosexual". I don't believe "have you tried keto?" to a chronically ill person requires different cognitive faculties here. Note: I am also an objective third party. I don't have a chonic illness and have no dog in this fight. It seems to me that a chronically ill person is saying "while your intentions may be good, they are deceasing my quality of life", and I'm choosing to believe them.
    - PakG1 8y ago
      This makes sense to me. I'm sorry to shakna, many apologies. Wish you the best.
  - shakna 8y ago
    > As an objective third party, I think your chronic disease, your vast research of it all, and your corresponding frustration has warped your ability to have conversations with people who are less knowledgeable than you are. No, this is a common frustration of the entire community. People feel powerless, so they try and help, but you aren't helping. You either cause irritation because it's then ten thousandth time I've heard that advice, or frustration because you are showing a deep lack of understanding. > When my users are trying to tell me what is causing a bug and they're drastically wrong, I don't feel insulted that they think I don't know my own system. I just smile and have a nice conversation with them. There is no point in picking fights, and the person trying to help is not the one picking the fight. No. Don't. The relationships are not the same. An illness that affects every part of your life is deeply personal, and you are faced every day with stigma because of it. You're not suggesting useless information, because of the culture and proxy you have to it, you're suggesting the affected person hasn't tried hard enough. > But I believe you're taking it too negatively too personally when there's no need to do so. I imagine that isn't too great for personal happiness either. Getting told that I need to listen politely when someone is suggesting an idea of how to fix my genetics is personal. You don't tell someone that they shouldn't be using a wheelchair, or should be using a different one, unless you have a direct and professional connection with their health. > Where there is no ill intent, insults should not be taken. Insult was not immediately taken. They were repeatedly informed that this avenue of conversation is insulting. They responded by telling me I'm wrong. As have you, now. You can't imagine my life with chronic disease? Fine. I'm happy to guide you in interacting with someone with it. Step one, is not assume you know better. Your suggestions are unwelcome, because they carry stigma. They remind me of all the people I have faced who have told me that my disease is either not real, or able to be overcome by one simple trick. I'm not angry at you - but I have to say, you have been very... Unhelpful. More unhappiness comes from misguided altruism, than quiet acceptance.
- vibrato 8y ago
  If there's no intent to insult, only to help, maybe it's your responsibility that you get so offended.
  - shakna 8y ago
    It's my responsibility to inform you that you're being unhelpful. That makes it your responsibility to change your behaviour. If you ask someone to stop hitting you over the back of the head every time they walk passed you, it is reasonable to experience irritation if they don't change that behaviour, regardless of intent.
    - vibrato 8y ago
      That's just like, your opinion man. In your example I wouldn't be offended about any discussion. They hit me in the head, I'll retaliate the first time they do it.

shakna 8y ago

By providing a suggestion, you're implying they haven't tried. I've spent ten years with a chronic disease with no known cause. I am currently on two trials. You are not capable of naming any suggestion that I have not heard, and that is common in the community. You don't appreciate my point - you're insulting by making your suggestions. You're suggesting that they haven't investigated something that affects every single part of their life.

SteveCoast 8y ago
I meet people all the time whose sole source of information is their doctor. And, I said 'FWIW' as the very first word. I realize this is the internet but that's a stretch to find an insult.
- shakna 8y ago
  > I realize this is the internet but that's a stretch to find an insult. It's not. It's even in the damned article. If you can't understand that, you have even less business giving anyone advice, you're missing the humanity of the situation.
  - SteveCoast 8y ago
    You literally give unasked advice in your other thread. I'm not sure we can run open discussion boards with the principle that you can't insult anyone for any reason even unintentionally.
    - shakna 8y ago
      > I'm afraid I'm going to have to be a little rude here. > You may be approaching this with good intentions, but don't do this. I calmly asked you to stop a behaviour. The insult was only taken when you asserted your belief that I, a victim of the situation, is fundamentally wrong, and that you, a random stranger, have the right to do something people, not just myself but the author of the article and many others, find harmful. Open discussion will always bring conflict. That's not the problem here. The problem is you've told something causes conflict, and you aren't responding with sensitivity, or grace. I've attempted to explain to you the nuances of the behaviour, and why that may cause conflict.
      - SteveCoast 8y ago
        > I calmly asked you to stop a behaviour. Then let me calmly ask you to stop. Chill. Go walk in the woods.
        shakna 8y ago
        I can't actually walk, so no thanks. But no, you haven't irritated me enough to be a concern, and I agree, the effort to convince someone who has no wish to understand is more than I can spare.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  I believe the concern here is that while the intentions to provide advice may be good, the actual result is harmful, and thus it is better not to provide advisement unless explicitly requested in the specific context of someone who has a chronic illness. The assumption of providing advisement is 1) your advice might be helpful, 2) advising isn't itself a harmful act, 3) you have something worth advising about. In the specific case of a chonic illness, the probability is high that all these assumptions are not correct. Therefore, advising a chronically ill person requires exceptional behavior compared to someone who is not chronically ill. It's also important that this(unwanted advice) is a common issue that adversely affects a person's QoL, as they are forced to re-address the same ground consistently when they already have limited productive resources.
  - nate_meurer 8y ago
    > adversely affects a person's QoL, as they are forced to re-address the same ground consistently when they already have limited productive resources. But that's not what happened here. Steve didn't prompt anyone for a response of any kind. He offered a quick one-liner of a suggestion. Shakna wasn't even part of that thread, and just dropped in to tell him to shut up. It's the internet man. You're quite free to disregard the advice.
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      Shakna was attempting to use a common social cue, criticism, to prevent Steve from continuing to apply inappropriate social behavior, especially relevant given that Shakna has a decade of experience in the nuances of social dynamics in the context of chronic illness. I interpreted Shakna's sharp rebuke as no different than any other expert informing someone that they're participating in highly ignorant behavior. By criticizing Shakna, you are also participating in a social cue to try and prevent Shakna from continuing to apply inappropriate social behavior (in this case, criticizing others unnecessarily). Does "It's the internet man. You're quite free to disregard Shakna's criticism." not apply also to you?
      - nate_meurer 8y ago
- astura 8y ago
  >I meet people all the time whose sole source of information is their doctor I seriously doubt that. Everyone who has a chronic illness is bombarded constantly by friends, family, acquaintances, and strangers with unsolicited "advice" as to how to cure their disease with diets, exercise, oils, herbs, craniosacral therapy, prayer, meditation, homeopathy, enemas, chiropractic adjustments, talk therapy, vitamins, supplements, and every other crazy thing you can think of.
PakG1 8y ago
As an objective third party, I think your chronic disease, your vast research of it all, and your corresponding frustration has warped your ability to have conversations with people who are less knowledgeable than you are. Where there is no ill intent, insults should not be taken. The insults are your own interpretation, there is no reason to take insult where none exists, especially when someone is trying to be helpful. Best to just shrug and say, "yeah, thanks, but researched this." When my users are trying to tell me what is causing a bug and they're drastically wrong, I don't feel insulted that they think I don't know my own system. I just smile and have a nice conversation with them. There is no point in picking fights, and the person trying to help is not the one picking the fight. I'm sorry for your chronic disease, and I can't imagine what it's like. I can't speak to that. But I believe you're taking it too negatively too personally when there's no need to do so. I imagine that isn't too great for personal happiness either.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  > Where there is no ill intent, insults should not be taken. I don't know if this is true even in the general case. It is entirely possible to insult someone with no ill intent, such as "you speak well for a black" or "you're funny for a female" or "you're alright for a homosexual". I don't believe "have you tried keto?" to a chronically ill person requires different cognitive faculties here. Note: I am also an objective third party. I don't have a chonic illness and have no dog in this fight. It seems to me that a chronically ill person is saying "while your intentions may be good, they are deceasing my quality of life", and I'm choosing to believe them.
  - PakG1 8y ago
    This makes sense to me. I'm sorry to shakna, many apologies. Wish you the best.
- shakna 8y ago
  > As an objective third party, I think your chronic disease, your vast research of it all, and your corresponding frustration has warped your ability to have conversations with people who are less knowledgeable than you are. No, this is a common frustration of the entire community. People feel powerless, so they try and help, but you aren't helping. You either cause irritation because it's then ten thousandth time I've heard that advice, or frustration because you are showing a deep lack of understanding. > When my users are trying to tell me what is causing a bug and they're drastically wrong, I don't feel insulted that they think I don't know my own system. I just smile and have a nice conversation with them. There is no point in picking fights, and the person trying to help is not the one picking the fight. No. Don't. The relationships are not the same. An illness that affects every part of your life is deeply personal, and you are faced every day with stigma because of it. You're not suggesting useless information, because of the culture and proxy you have to it, you're suggesting the affected person hasn't tried hard enough. > But I believe you're taking it too negatively too personally when there's no need to do so. I imagine that isn't too great for personal happiness either. Getting told that I need to listen politely when someone is suggesting an idea of how to fix my genetics is personal. You don't tell someone that they shouldn't be using a wheelchair, or should be using a different one, unless you have a direct and professional connection with their health. > Where there is no ill intent, insults should not be taken. Insult was not immediately taken. They were repeatedly informed that this avenue of conversation is insulting. They responded by telling me I'm wrong. As have you, now. You can't imagine my life with chronic disease? Fine. I'm happy to guide you in interacting with someone with it. Step one, is not assume you know better. Your suggestions are unwelcome, because they carry stigma. They remind me of all the people I have faced who have told me that my disease is either not real, or able to be overcome by one simple trick. I'm not angry at you - but I have to say, you have been very... Unhelpful. More unhappiness comes from misguided altruism, than quiet acceptance.
vibrato 8y ago
If there's no intent to insult, only to help, maybe it's your responsibility that you get so offended.
- shakna 8y ago
  It's my responsibility to inform you that you're being unhelpful. That makes it your responsibility to change your behaviour. If you ask someone to stop hitting you over the back of the head every time they walk passed you, it is reasonable to experience irritation if they don't change that behaviour, regardless of intent.
  - vibrato 8y ago
    That's just like, your opinion man. In your example I wouldn't be offended about any discussion. They hit me in the head, I'll retaliate the first time they do it.