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> This isn’t the real world. It’s all just conjured up on a screen for profit and entertainment. One of the reasons I love embedded SW development is this righ

> This isn’t the real world. It’s all just conjured up on a screen for profit and entertainment. One of the reasons I love embedded SW development is this right here. I know that it's basically just in my head, but it's so much more satisfying for me to work on a medical device SW or a harvester control system than, I dunno, some random ToDo app. One could call embedded dev the sweet spot between the real world (as you put it) and the abstract world of pure software.

ChuckNorris89 8y ago
Embedded dev here. I also love this profession but seeing the huge gap of perks between us and app kiddies(remote work opportunities, higher wages, more days off, free meals, modern offices in nice cities) makes me depressed. That's why I'm actively trying to move to BackEnd/Fullstack.
0x445442 8y ago
How is embedded development WRT requirements and process? I've had this theory for some time that a number of dev's frustrations are rooted in the fact that what they're doing isn't anything close to real engineering. That for a great many of their jobs, quality is not really a priority because what they're creating could just as easily be gone or reworked tomorrow. So I've wondered if I'm on to something, do things get better the farther down the dev stack you go? Because, much like building a physical structure once that hardware ships the software is doing it's intended, required job. Sure, there can be firmware patches in the same way a building needs maintenance but it's not like management is going to recall the coffee makers because they think they should now tweet when your coffee was made.
- shandor 8y ago
  That depends the most on what you work on. Of course there is an abundance of embedded shops that do the kind of development that gets tweeted by @internetofshit On the other hand, things like heavy machinery control systems are usually in somewhere in the middle: the machines themselves are burdened by all kinds of regulations, and the machines can kill a dozen people easily by accident if something goes catastrophically wrong, so it would definitely suck to "move fast and break things". Also, like you mentioned, software updates are few and far between. Then there's medical and aviation and friends, where you have MISRA-C and the like. Very process-y, if you like that. Basically, work on SW for tangible things, and pick your poison regarding how much requirements and process you want. I'd say that on a very broad average, things do get more strict going farther down the stack, if for no other reason than that if the lowest level code does not work reliably, then nothing else usually won't either.
  - metallurgy 8y ago
    I'd love stricter requirements. But the last thing I want is more process. I mean goddamn, I have to track work on our repositories, and our story tracker. I have to produce slideshows and excel docs and numerous other tasks which just exist to keep the MBAs happy. There's just so much bullshit work mixed into the actual task, not that I care much about the actual task in the first place.
johnchristopher 8y ago
Isn't embedded largely going away ?
- seren 8y ago
  I think there are two concurrent forces at play pulling in a opposite directions. On one hand, the higher end of the embedded world can be replaced by a powerful CPU that can run Linux, and there is not much differences between embedded vs non embedded there. This is the "easy" but not cheap solution. On the other hand, as always more sensors are needed, and as objects are more connected than ever, the density of micro controller running on a given device is exploding (from automotive to various medical devices). So all in all, I am not sure that embedded is decreasing.
  - shandor 8y ago
    Yeah, exactly. And automotive itself is kind of just the tip of the iceberg (although admittedly huge by volume). My current company is working with heavy machinery manufacturers, and the industry is years behind consumer automotive. There's a similar kind of explosion in the amount of small intelligent modules waiting to happen.
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    Don't forget per-unit savings at scale. That's the main reason 8-16 bitters (a) still exist at all and (b) sell for over a billion dollars a year. The 32-bit RISC chips on modern nodes are starting to eat into them. Yet, there will always be companies willing to use a tinier, weaker, or just weirder device to increase per-unit profits. Heck, there's even still a market for 4-bit chips used by the likes of Gillette: http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/considerations-for-4-bit-processing/ http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/consider...
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      Yeah. If you can save 5 cents on the part cost, and you're going to sell 100 million of them, it's worth it (for the company) to burn a few person-years of engineering time dealing with the limitations of the chip (provided it's at least barely adequate for the task).

ChuckNorris89 8y ago

Embedded dev here. I also love this profession but seeing the huge gap of perks between us and app kiddies(remote work opportunities, higher wages, more days off, free meals, modern offices in nice cities) makes me depressed. That's why I'm actively trying to move to BackEnd/Fullstack.

0x445442 8y ago

How is embedded development WRT requirements and process? I've had this theory for some time that a number of dev's frustrations are rooted in the fact that what they're doing isn't anything close to real engineering. That for a great many of their jobs, quality is not really a priority because what they're creating could just as easily be gone or reworked tomorrow. So I've wondered if I'm on to something, do things get better the farther down the dev stack you go? Because, much like building a physical structure once that hardware ships the software is doing it's intended, required job. Sure, there can be firmware patches in the same way a building needs maintenance but it's not like management is going to recall the coffee makers because they think they should now tweet when your coffee was made.

shandor 8y ago
That depends the most on what you work on. Of course there is an abundance of embedded shops that do the kind of development that gets tweeted by @internetofshit On the other hand, things like heavy machinery control systems are usually in somewhere in the middle: the machines themselves are burdened by all kinds of regulations, and the machines can kill a dozen people easily by accident if something goes catastrophically wrong, so it would definitely suck to "move fast and break things". Also, like you mentioned, software updates are few and far between. Then there's medical and aviation and friends, where you have MISRA-C and the like. Very process-y, if you like that. Basically, work on SW for tangible things, and pick your poison regarding how much requirements and process you want. I'd say that on a very broad average, things do get more strict going farther down the stack, if for no other reason than that if the lowest level code does not work reliably, then nothing else usually won't either.
- metallurgy 8y ago
  I'd love stricter requirements. But the last thing I want is more process. I mean goddamn, I have to track work on our repositories, and our story tracker. I have to produce slideshows and excel docs and numerous other tasks which just exist to keep the MBAs happy. There's just so much bullshit work mixed into the actual task, not that I care much about the actual task in the first place.

johnchristopher 8y ago

Isn't embedded largely going away ?

seren 8y ago
I think there are two concurrent forces at play pulling in a opposite directions. On one hand, the higher end of the embedded world can be replaced by a powerful CPU that can run Linux, and there is not much differences between embedded vs non embedded there. This is the "easy" but not cheap solution. On the other hand, as always more sensors are needed, and as objects are more connected than ever, the density of micro controller running on a given device is exploding (from automotive to various medical devices). So all in all, I am not sure that embedded is decreasing.
- shandor 8y ago
  Yeah, exactly. And automotive itself is kind of just the tip of the iceberg (although admittedly huge by volume). My current company is working with heavy machinery manufacturers, and the industry is years behind consumer automotive. There's a similar kind of explosion in the amount of small intelligent modules waiting to happen.
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  Don't forget per-unit savings at scale. That's the main reason 8-16 bitters (a) still exist at all and (b) sell for over a billion dollars a year. The 32-bit RISC chips on modern nodes are starting to eat into them. Yet, there will always be companies willing to use a tinier, weaker, or just weirder device to increase per-unit profits. Heck, there's even still a market for 4-bit chips used by the likes of Gillette: http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/considerations-for-4-bit-processing/ http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/consider...
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    Yeah. If you can save 5 cents on the part cost, and you're going to sell 100 million of them, it's worth it (for the company) to burn a few person-years of engineering time dealing with the limitations of the chip (provided it's at least barely adequate for the task).