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There's countries where the percentage is lower, yet it's basically illegal to criticize the government. More importantly, what does that change about the argu

There's countries where the percentage is lower, yet it's basically illegal to criticize the government. More importantly, what does that change about the argument that arresting criminals is hardly the only thing to consider? Here's the same argument with enhanced contrast: If you threw Earth into the sun, all crimes would stop. If that's all we care about, everything else is just kicking the can down the road. But that would be a "crime" in and of itself, right? IMO the same could be said about mass surveillance, it's stripping humans of their rights to preserve their rights, burning the village to save it. Generally I can't help but notice that it's really not the size of the crime that seems to matter, but whether it's aligned with centers of power or not. We're aiming at a world where a tyrant can't be assassinated, and the defenseless can be murdered without consequence, with a bit of playing for time and lip service to principles here and there. > It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. -- Voltaire

antris 8y ago
Are you ignorant or choosing to ignore how much of the prison population is there due to criminalising the use of narcotics and much of the violent crimes committed is a result of this policy? Are you also ignorant or choosing to ignore that the policy has been used to target especially minorities who get sentenced much more often than whites despite drug use being at similar levels across races? Calling all these people simply "criminals" is a bit too straightforward term when the system has been set up to mainly jail black men for crimes that have no clear victim. That's a serious issue for a country that claims to be all about liberty.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > Are you ignorant or choosing to ignore how much of the prison population is there due to criminalising the use of narcotics and much of the violent crimes committed is a result of this policy? Neither, that's simply besides the point.
  - antris 8y ago
    How's putting people in jail based on racism besides the point when it comes to liberty? What good is being able to criticise leaders if you're in jail and can never vote again?
    - beatgammit 8y ago
      It's beside the point because the discussion is about mass surveillance, which will only make the problems you mention worse. If we give police more and more ability to track people, who do you think they'll track, murderers or drug dealers/users? As a hint, the latter is far more profitable to the police station. Yes we need to change laws that disproportionately put non-violent offenders in jail, but that's beside the point when talking about mass surveillance. Both are bad, and both should have separate discussions.
    - PavlovsCat 8y ago
      > How's putting people in jail based on racism besides the point when it comes to liberty? The point made upstream was that optimizing for jailing criminals and ignoring all else is not a good metric, while also making the terrible mistake of calling the US pretty free, which was "refuted" by with, well, a single metric, incarceration rate -- I asked what that changes about the original point, and said incarceration rate is not the one and only metric by which to measure liberty. If you wish to contest either of those points, actually do it.
blackbrokkoli 8y ago
Excuse me, what? I think you should step out of whatever propaganda feed you are sucked in. Literally all of the EU have a massively lower rate and in none of the countries it is remotely illegal to criticize the government. In Germany for example, you have multiple programs on TV dedicated to make political satire of current politics. On basically tax funded TV. And you won't have your name published for criticizing the white house [1] like in the country some people apparently unironically think of as the place with the most personal freedom. [1] http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/07/15/white_house_publishes_names_emails_phone_numbers_home_addresses_of_critics.html?via=gdpr-consent http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/07/15/white_hous...
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > Literally all of the EU have a massively lower rate and in none of the countries it is remotely illegal to criticize the government. Yes, and? I didn't say that's the case in every country with a lower rate, I said there's countries that have a lower rate, but can hardly be called free. To judge something as complex as this by a single metric doesn't even pass the smell test.
neotek 8y ago
>There's countries where the percentage is lower, yet it's basically illegal to criticize the government. Don’t you see how deeply ironic that statement is? There are countries where even trivial things like criticising the government are illegal, and yet somehow the United States manages to imprison more of its own population than anyone else. Put another way, you are more likely to have your liberty completely revoked if you live in the United States than if you live anywhere else in the world, both by population and per capita.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  I'm aware of all of that, and that changes none of the points I made, nor the questions I asked. 3 comments freaking out, not one addressing the meat.
geggam 8y ago
If you think its not illegal to criticize the govt get on twitter and start ranting. Ask ted nugent how a secret service visit feels ? or go local... simply go outside and start criticizing the local govt agents ( police ) I promise you will get a couple doses of freedom and likely be given the chance to donate to their cause

antris 8y ago

Are you ignorant or choosing to ignore how much of the prison population is there due to criminalising the use of narcotics and much of the violent crimes committed is a result of this policy? Are you also ignorant or choosing to ignore that the policy has been used to target especially minorities who get sentenced much more often than whites despite drug use being at similar levels across races? Calling all these people simply "criminals" is a bit too straightforward term when the system has been set up to mainly jail black men for crimes that have no clear victim. That's a serious issue for a country that claims to be all about liberty.

PavlovsCat 8y ago
> Are you ignorant or choosing to ignore how much of the prison population is there due to criminalising the use of narcotics and much of the violent crimes committed is a result of this policy? Neither, that's simply besides the point.
- antris 8y ago
  How's putting people in jail based on racism besides the point when it comes to liberty? What good is being able to criticise leaders if you're in jail and can never vote again?
  - beatgammit 8y ago
    It's beside the point because the discussion is about mass surveillance, which will only make the problems you mention worse. If we give police more and more ability to track people, who do you think they'll track, murderers or drug dealers/users? As a hint, the latter is far more profitable to the police station. Yes we need to change laws that disproportionately put non-violent offenders in jail, but that's beside the point when talking about mass surveillance. Both are bad, and both should have separate discussions.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    > How's putting people in jail based on racism besides the point when it comes to liberty? The point made upstream was that optimizing for jailing criminals and ignoring all else is not a good metric, while also making the terrible mistake of calling the US pretty free, which was "refuted" by with, well, a single metric, incarceration rate -- I asked what that changes about the original point, and said incarceration rate is not the one and only metric by which to measure liberty. If you wish to contest either of those points, actually do it.

blackbrokkoli 8y ago

Excuse me, what? I think you should step out of whatever propaganda feed you are sucked in. Literally all of the EU have a massively lower rate and in none of the countries it is remotely illegal to criticize the government. In Germany for example, you have multiple programs on TV dedicated to make political satire of current politics. On basically tax funded TV. And you won't have your name published for criticizing the white house [1] like in the country some people apparently unironically think of as the place with the most personal freedom. [1] http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/07/15/white_house_publishes_names_emails_phone_numbers_home_addresses_of_critics.html?via=gdpr-consent http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/07/15/white_hous...

PavlovsCat 8y ago
> Literally all of the EU have a massively lower rate and in none of the countries it is remotely illegal to criticize the government. Yes, and? I didn't say that's the case in every country with a lower rate, I said there's countries that have a lower rate, but can hardly be called free. To judge something as complex as this by a single metric doesn't even pass the smell test.

neotek 8y ago

>There's countries where the percentage is lower, yet it's basically illegal to criticize the government. Don’t you see how deeply ironic that statement is? There are countries where even trivial things like criticising the government are illegal, and yet somehow the United States manages to imprison more of its own population than anyone else. Put another way, you are more likely to have your liberty completely revoked if you live in the United States than if you live anywhere else in the world, both by population and per capita.

PavlovsCat 8y ago
I'm aware of all of that, and that changes none of the points I made, nor the questions I asked. 3 comments freaking out, not one addressing the meat.

geggam 8y ago

If you think its not illegal to criticize the govt get on twitter and start ranting. Ask ted nugent how a secret service visit feels ? or go local... simply go outside and start criticizing the local govt agents ( police ) I promise you will get a couple doses of freedom and likely be given the chance to donate to their cause