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Having just turned 30, this resonates with me too well. Seeing it on paper helps a bit, but it still sucks. Along the lines of what others have said in this th

Having just turned 30, this resonates with me too well. Seeing it on paper helps a bit, but it still sucks. Along the lines of what others have said in this thread, I hate. Hate. Hate. Sitting at a desk for my job and staring into a little box. It just seems hysterical that we will likely spend most of our working lives staring at little boxes with lots of text and images on them. This isn’t the real world. It’s all just conjured up on a screen for profit and entertainment. Computers have taken over our lives and seem to be replacing even social interaction for some people. I’m sick of it. And as soon as you turn <device> off, it doesn’t F*ing matter anymore. I bet nearly every intellectual profession now is dominated by computer-based work. And it sucks because the old jobs - bakers, builders, mechanics, etc. - don’t pay nearly as much as the jobs that any 22 year old making shitty web apps with React can get paid. Am I flippant? Yes. Do I know where to go from here? Nope.

SZJX 8y ago
I don't think feeling the job "isn't real" is the actual underlying reason you hate your job. Most likely you're a bit burnt out or having a mid-life symptom. By your definition is baking real, since it uses all sorts of processed agricultural products and sophisticated machinery? Maybe let's all go back to live in caves, make stone tools by hand and hunt animals? Programming is very "real" in that it powers up all the infrastructures that make the modern society run. Software developers are called "engineers" for a reason. I'm not sure there's much that can get more "real" than engineering. It certainly is much better than being a salesman or something if you want to look it this way.
shandor 8y ago
> This isn’t the real world. It’s all just conjured up on a screen for profit and entertainment. One of the reasons I love embedded SW development is this right here. I know that it's basically just in my head, but it's so much more satisfying for me to work on a medical device SW or a harvester control system than, I dunno, some random ToDo app. One could call embedded dev the sweet spot between the real world (as you put it) and the abstract world of pure software.
- ChuckNorris89 8y ago
  Embedded dev here. I also love this profession but seeing the huge gap of perks between us and app kiddies(remote work opportunities, higher wages, more days off, free meals, modern offices in nice cities) makes me depressed. That's why I'm actively trying to move to BackEnd/Fullstack.
- 0x445442 8y ago
  How is embedded development WRT requirements and process? I've had this theory for some time that a number of dev's frustrations are rooted in the fact that what they're doing isn't anything close to real engineering. That for a great many of their jobs, quality is not really a priority because what they're creating could just as easily be gone or reworked tomorrow. So I've wondered if I'm on to something, do things get better the farther down the dev stack you go? Because, much like building a physical structure once that hardware ships the software is doing it's intended, required job. Sure, there can be firmware patches in the same way a building needs maintenance but it's not like management is going to recall the coffee makers because they think they should now tweet when your coffee was made.
  - shandor 8y ago
    That depends the most on what you work on. Of course there is an abundance of embedded shops that do the kind of development that gets tweeted by @internetofshit On the other hand, things like heavy machinery control systems are usually in somewhere in the middle: the machines themselves are burdened by all kinds of regulations, and the machines can kill a dozen people easily by accident if something goes catastrophically wrong, so it would definitely suck to "move fast and break things". Also, like you mentioned, software updates are few and far between. Then there's medical and aviation and friends, where you have MISRA-C and the like. Very process-y, if you like that. Basically, work on SW for tangible things, and pick your poison regarding how much requirements and process you want. I'd say that on a very broad average, things do get more strict going farther down the stack, if for no other reason than that if the lowest level code does not work reliably, then nothing else usually won't either.
icebraining 8y ago
You could just accept a lower wage...
jodrellblank 8y ago
Isn't that always the tradeoff - job which is satisfying pays less than job which is less satisfying? If it felt good and paid more, it would be too easy.
- SZJX 8y ago
  Don't think that makes much sense. Some jobs requiring long hours do of course pay more partly due to that, e.g. lawyers and investment bankers. But if you ask construction workers whether they'd like to stop their job and have a higher-paying office job, the vast majority would say it's a no-brainer. Most jobs pay more because they are harder to carry out, not because they are more of a torture. Simple market mechanisms.
cdubzzz 8y ago
It really is a question of your willingness to accept a lower wage for work you want to do. I am 34 and have been doing web development professionally since I was 19. I have always and still do love it. I suspect that is at least partially due to the fact that I have consistently accepted lower pay to work at small businesses and nonprofits. I currently work for the local PBS affiliate and absolutely love the environment, people, and challenges there. But, I do also worry about how that will affect me and my family long term. Will my wife and I be able to support our children well? Will we be able to retire comfortably? Etc. I’m certainly still making a very comfortable wage compared to many other professions, but I have turned down salaraies 25+% higher than my current one from much larger corporate organizations. Will I regret that in 20 years?
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  Run some savings calculations, check the kids’ savings, live debt free, top of emergency funds, should be ok. Regretting anything is a waste of time and energy because you just never know where life might have taken you had you made the other choice. Say you accepted the larger pay job but the work environment was poor and you brought work problems home, which then affects marriage and you divorce and lose your kids. Hypothetical sure, but millions of these types of scenarios could play out from a single choice. It’s best not to live in regrets and accept everything as is. Ultimately we have control momentarily and can steer our ship any which way we like but the sea is full of icebergs.
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    > Regretting anything is a waste of time and energy because you just never know where life might have taken you had you made the other choice. Wise words written. I "regret" - at the ripe old age of 45+ - having not gone on to get an advanced degree. I was lazy; I know that now. It was not because of inability. But I make a comfortable living as an SE, have no children, have a good amount of savings, and I am debt free (other than a mortgage, which doesn't count - especially since my house is now worth double of what I paid for it 15+ years ago - plus having equity, etc). So - since actually pursuing a degree (something I have considered) would likely not improve my salary prospects much, and would only put me further in debt - I instead occasionally spend time involving myself in MOOCs (so far all of them in the AI/ML space). I try not to dwell on that "regret"; as you have said, life could have turned out so much differently and I would likely have other "regrets" instead. Instead, I do what I can to continue my educational self-improvement in other ways (MOOCs being one small part), and focus instead upon my life's successes and everyday enjoyments, which are honestly more than enough for me.
sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
If thoughts like these are making you suffer, there are other ways of thinking. Whether the object you are working on is an engine block or the Chrome debugger, you are working on something designed by humans. If you were working on the engine block, might you still feel that your life wasn’t “real” enough, because you would be surrounded by metal and concrete rather than trees? A set of atoms arranged into a piece of wood and a set of transistors arranged in a particular state are both equally “real”. Consider that your experience of reality consists of a bunch of sensors absorbing random photons or other signals from your environment, stitched together by your brain software into a comprehensible whole. Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality - Anil Seth - TED https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo Your feeling of “unreality” is really a basic fact of your existence - if you were raised by wolves in the forest and never saw a single human invention, you still might find yourself wondering if you were stuck in a dream. In that way, even the “unreality” you feel is part of nature. Isn’t that cool? If you can’t stop thoughts like that from bothering you on an ongoing basis, you might be suffering from a mild depression. Antidepressants work for many, as does therapy.
trophycase 8y ago
I felt the same way. I actually used the similar words to describe my office workplace "nothing real happens here". I quit though and thank god, it was miserable. You're absolutely right that people aren't meant to sit and stare at screens all day.
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
I’ve had this battle with myself and my purpose for as long as I remember. I even try to convince myself that somehow what I do improves lives but frankly I could give a shit. I am not talking as a privileged white male although that’s who I am, I grew up in poverty and know what hunger feels like and know what hard work is having done a fair bit of manual labor. At the end of the day I have to look at the broad picture and say to myself “well if I didn’t do it, someone may not have had a pleasant time when they were trying to do X on this website, I helped make their experience less stressful”. I realize that experience is just encouraging consumption or lining pockets of rich fat cats but I don’t know how else to feel good about myself. I really shouldn’t. There are times where I envy real jobs, but the. I look at how real jobs treat people and I have to be thankful for the situation I’m in. Who gets to work from home on their terms, their time and not have to put up with asshole bosses? Who gets to chose when they work? Not many people. Do I deserve it? Probably not, but I figured out that life is but a set of constraints on an otherwise limitless mind. You can do anything you want and yet people don’t. I’m always amazed at the power that is choice and which is easily available to most people in most circumstances, they just make the wrong choices or conjure up reasons why something can’t be or must be this way only. I think about these things all the time- like what if I decide this right now instead of that - where will life take me? The number of possibilities is mind boggling. Sorry for ranting, I’m not really sure where this is going. Well, I am staring at a screen :(

SZJX 8y ago

I don't think feeling the job "isn't real" is the actual underlying reason you hate your job. Most likely you're a bit burnt out or having a mid-life symptom. By your definition is baking real, since it uses all sorts of processed agricultural products and sophisticated machinery? Maybe let's all go back to live in caves, make stone tools by hand and hunt animals? Programming is very "real" in that it powers up all the infrastructures that make the modern society run. Software developers are called "engineers" for a reason. I'm not sure there's much that can get more "real" than engineering. It certainly is much better than being a salesman or something if you want to look it this way.

shandor 8y ago

> This isn’t the real world. It’s all just conjured up on a screen for profit and entertainment. One of the reasons I love embedded SW development is this right here. I know that it's basically just in my head, but it's so much more satisfying for me to work on a medical device SW or a harvester control system than, I dunno, some random ToDo app. One could call embedded dev the sweet spot between the real world (as you put it) and the abstract world of pure software.

ChuckNorris89 8y ago
Embedded dev here. I also love this profession but seeing the huge gap of perks between us and app kiddies(remote work opportunities, higher wages, more days off, free meals, modern offices in nice cities) makes me depressed. That's why I'm actively trying to move to BackEnd/Fullstack.
0x445442 8y ago
How is embedded development WRT requirements and process? I've had this theory for some time that a number of dev's frustrations are rooted in the fact that what they're doing isn't anything close to real engineering. That for a great many of their jobs, quality is not really a priority because what they're creating could just as easily be gone or reworked tomorrow. So I've wondered if I'm on to something, do things get better the farther down the dev stack you go? Because, much like building a physical structure once that hardware ships the software is doing it's intended, required job. Sure, there can be firmware patches in the same way a building needs maintenance but it's not like management is going to recall the coffee makers because they think they should now tweet when your coffee was made.
- shandor 8y ago
  That depends the most on what you work on. Of course there is an abundance of embedded shops that do the kind of development that gets tweeted by @internetofshit On the other hand, things like heavy machinery control systems are usually in somewhere in the middle: the machines themselves are burdened by all kinds of regulations, and the machines can kill a dozen people easily by accident if something goes catastrophically wrong, so it would definitely suck to "move fast and break things". Also, like you mentioned, software updates are few and far between. Then there's medical and aviation and friends, where you have MISRA-C and the like. Very process-y, if you like that. Basically, work on SW for tangible things, and pick your poison regarding how much requirements and process you want. I'd say that on a very broad average, things do get more strict going farther down the stack, if for no other reason than that if the lowest level code does not work reliably, then nothing else usually won't either.

icebraining 8y ago

You could just accept a lower wage...

jodrellblank 8y ago

Isn't that always the tradeoff - job which is satisfying pays less than job which is less satisfying? If it felt good and paid more, it would be too easy.

SZJX 8y ago
Don't think that makes much sense. Some jobs requiring long hours do of course pay more partly due to that, e.g. lawyers and investment bankers. But if you ask construction workers whether they'd like to stop their job and have a higher-paying office job, the vast majority would say it's a no-brainer. Most jobs pay more because they are harder to carry out, not because they are more of a torture. Simple market mechanisms.

cdubzzz 8y ago

It really is a question of your willingness to accept a lower wage for work you want to do. I am 34 and have been doing web development professionally since I was 19. I have always and still do love it. I suspect that is at least partially due to the fact that I have consistently accepted lower pay to work at small businesses and nonprofits. I currently work for the local PBS affiliate and absolutely love the environment, people, and challenges there. But, I do also worry about how that will affect me and my family long term. Will my wife and I be able to support our children well? Will we be able to retire comfortably? Etc. I’m certainly still making a very comfortable wage compared to many other professions, but I have turned down salaraies 25+% higher than my current one from much larger corporate organizations. Will I regret that in 20 years?

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
Run some savings calculations, check the kids’ savings, live debt free, top of emergency funds, should be ok. Regretting anything is a waste of time and energy because you just never know where life might have taken you had you made the other choice. Say you accepted the larger pay job but the work environment was poor and you brought work problems home, which then affects marriage and you divorce and lose your kids. Hypothetical sure, but millions of these types of scenarios could play out from a single choice. It’s best not to live in regrets and accept everything as is. Ultimately we have control momentarily and can steer our ship any which way we like but the sea is full of icebergs.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  > Regretting anything is a waste of time and energy because you just never know where life might have taken you had you made the other choice. Wise words written. I "regret" - at the ripe old age of 45+ - having not gone on to get an advanced degree. I was lazy; I know that now. It was not because of inability. But I make a comfortable living as an SE, have no children, have a good amount of savings, and I am debt free (other than a mortgage, which doesn't count - especially since my house is now worth double of what I paid for it 15+ years ago - plus having equity, etc). So - since actually pursuing a degree (something I have considered) would likely not improve my salary prospects much, and would only put me further in debt - I instead occasionally spend time involving myself in MOOCs (so far all of them in the AI/ML space). I try not to dwell on that "regret"; as you have said, life could have turned out so much differently and I would likely have other "regrets" instead. Instead, I do what I can to continue my educational self-improvement in other ways (MOOCs being one small part), and focus instead upon my life's successes and everyday enjoyments, which are honestly more than enough for me.

sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago

If thoughts like these are making you suffer, there are other ways of thinking. Whether the object you are working on is an engine block or the Chrome debugger, you are working on something designed by humans. If you were working on the engine block, might you still feel that your life wasn’t “real” enough, because you would be surrounded by metal and concrete rather than trees? A set of atoms arranged into a piece of wood and a set of transistors arranged in a particular state are both equally “real”. Consider that your experience of reality consists of a bunch of sensors absorbing random photons or other signals from your environment, stitched together by your brain software into a comprehensible whole. Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality - Anil Seth - TED https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo Your feeling of “unreality” is really a basic fact of your existence - if you were raised by wolves in the forest and never saw a single human invention, you still might find yourself wondering if you were stuck in a dream. In that way, even the “unreality” you feel is part of nature. Isn’t that cool? If you can’t stop thoughts like that from bothering you on an ongoing basis, you might be suffering from a mild depression. Antidepressants work for many, as does therapy.

trophycase 8y ago

I felt the same way. I actually used the similar words to describe my office workplace "nothing real happens here". I quit though and thank god, it was miserable. You're absolutely right that people aren't meant to sit and stare at screens all day.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

I’ve had this battle with myself and my purpose for as long as I remember. I even try to convince myself that somehow what I do improves lives but frankly I could give a shit. I am not talking as a privileged white male although that’s who I am, I grew up in poverty and know what hunger feels like and know what hard work is having done a fair bit of manual labor. At the end of the day I have to look at the broad picture and say to myself “well if I didn’t do it, someone may not have had a pleasant time when they were trying to do X on this website, I helped make their experience less stressful”. I realize that experience is just encouraging consumption or lining pockets of rich fat cats but I don’t know how else to feel good about myself. I really shouldn’t. There are times where I envy real jobs, but the. I look at how real jobs treat people and I have to be thankful for the situation I’m in. Who gets to work from home on their terms, their time and not have to put up with asshole bosses? Who gets to chose when they work? Not many people. Do I deserve it? Probably not, but I figured out that life is but a set of constraints on an otherwise limitless mind. You can do anything you want and yet people don’t. I’m always amazed at the power that is choice and which is easily available to most people in most circumstances, they just make the wrong choices or conjure up reasons why something can’t be or must be this way only. I think about these things all the time- like what if I decide this right now instead of that - where will life take me? The number of possibilities is mind boggling. Sorry for ranting, I’m not really sure where this is going. Well, I am staring at a screen :(