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It seems China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI and is going to use Hong Kong resources now... The rest of the objectives just seem contrived.

by gscott 8y ago

vkou 8y ago
What makes the BRI an over-extension? How does it compare to the economic and military extension of the other super-power?
- gscott 8y ago
  Not only do you have BRI but massive internment camps, massively expensive surveillance systems, massive number of police officers, expensive great firewall. Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice.
  - igravious 8y ago
    > China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI Unsubstantiated conjecture. Only time and history will tell. It is quite likely that the long-term strategic benefits to China will be (to use your favourite word) massive. Witness the outcomes of the Marshall Plan for a direct historical analogue. > massive internment camps A mainstream media falsehood one would be wise not to parrot: https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report-china-has-massive-internment-camps-for-uighur-muslims/ https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report... > massively expensive surveillance systems Given the Snowden revelations it is clear that China is unexceptional in this regard. Also, source for "massively expensive". Define "massively". > massive number of police officers Source for this claim? Define "massive". But even if they were to have a large police force, what would be inherently wrong with that? Isn't law and order a good thing? Or are you assuming that just because they're employed by the Chinese State that no police officer can be good? That would be painting with rather a large brush, wouldn't it? > expensive great firewall Source that the Great Firewall is expensive. Is it more expensive than the enormous NSA Utah Data Center and the innumerable data pipes which feed it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center > Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. By China, you mean the Communist Party of China I presume. Because otherwise you'd be talking about a civil war which is clearly not the case. It's true that the CPC brooks very little outright dissent, and it's true that the CPC's regime is virtually totalitarian when it comes to political ideology and expression. But to say that the CPC is at war with its own population is bonkers. It's well documented that there are tens of thousands of demonstrations a year so it would be incorrect to claim that the regime is 100% totalitarian (like N. Korea, for instance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China > This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Unsubstantiated balderdash. We can see from the USA's ever-increasing deficit mountain owing to the enormous and ever-increasing Defense budget that there is no Earthly way this claim of yours is true. The USA's many foreign misadventures (a lovely way of articulating something that has destroyed millions of lives and caused untold suffering) are collectively easily more expensive than the CPC's ongoing dissident surveillance, suppression and security apparatus. “The bill, which passed 85-10 in a massive show of bipartisan support, represents a considerable boost in defense spending across the board – roughly $82 billion just for next year. The annual increase by itself is bigger than the annual defense budget of Russia ($61 billion) and the two-year jump of over $165 billion eclipses the entire defense budget of China ($150 billion).” https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/can-you-think-of-any-other-ways-to-spend-716-billion-666079/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/can-you-... > Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice. Given the incorrect premises undoubtedly your conclusion is incorrect.
  - vkou 8y ago
    Even including the internment camps, the US still has the largest per-capita prison population in the world. The UK has, for many years, had the most extensive physical surveillance system in the world, with the NSA having one of the more extensive digital surveillance systems.[1] The Department of Defense employs 3.2 million people, 2.2 million of which are military (Active and otherwise). US police forces employ another 1 million. [2] In contrast, China has ~1.6 million police officers (In a country four times more populous then the US), and ~2.3 million people in the military (Active and otherwise). There's probably a million or so of hanger-on people working in various administrative roles - but with China - who really knows? The United States has been at war with enemies, internal, and external, for most of its existence. It is, as of Q1, 2019, fighting a few shooting wars against external enemies (Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis), and non-shooting wars against a larger number of other external enemies, as well as internal ones (African Americans, illegal immigrants, and, of course, working class people of all stripes.) If anything, the list of reasons you've given are the bullet points for why the American empire, as it exists today, is unsustainable, and is about to fall apart under its own weight. [3] [1] Both, of course, are irrelevant budgetary rounding errors. So is the GFC. [2] If you've ever turned on the radio - or the television, have you ever noticed how many businesses specifically advertise, or cater to veterans, and their extended families? That's because nearly everyone in the US is, at most, two steps removed from an active, or former soldier. You don't see those kinds of advertisements in countries that don't have an over-sized military. [3] In reality, it can probably continue on its trajectory for another two decades, or so. All of these bullet points were true in 1999, after all.
    - igravious 8y ago
      The internment camps thing is not an outright lie but it is propaganda: https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report-china-has-massive-internment-camps-for-uighur-muslims/ https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report... Your other points are very well made though.I'm sure your figures are accurate but it'd be great if you could provide sources for them.
    - gscott 8y ago
      No doubt we need to get out of endless wars. It seems easier said then done. As soon as President Trump tried to get out of Syria there was a huge backlash from Government insiders. Eventually China will block the South China Sea trade routes and because we are over-extending ourselves we may find ourselves powerless against it.
calyth2018 8y ago
Use Hong Kong's resources? Have you looked at where HK gets its water, its food? Or how many of the listings on the exchange are China related companies?
- gscott 8y ago
  Financial resources... not physical resources.
ngcc_hk 8y ago
Yes they are. Got 100 billion dollars reserve to get. As regards water hker paid more than Israel getting theirs. Abd most foods try to get non-chinese if they can.

It seems China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI and is going to use Hong Kong resources now... The rest of the objectives just seem contrived.

by gscott 8y ago

It seems China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI and is going to use Hong Kong resources now... The rest of the objectives just seem contrived.

vkou 8y ago

What makes the BRI an over-extension? How does it compare to the economic and military extension of the other super-power?

gscott 8y ago
Not only do you have BRI but massive internment camps, massively expensive surveillance systems, massive number of police officers, expensive great firewall. Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice.
- igravious 8y ago
  > China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI Unsubstantiated conjecture. Only time and history will tell. It is quite likely that the long-term strategic benefits to China will be (to use your favourite word) massive. Witness the outcomes of the Marshall Plan for a direct historical analogue. > massive internment camps A mainstream media falsehood one would be wise not to parrot: https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report-china-has-massive-internment-camps-for-uighur-muslims/ https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report... > massively expensive surveillance systems Given the Snowden revelations it is clear that China is unexceptional in this regard. Also, source for "massively expensive". Define "massively". > massive number of police officers Source for this claim? Define "massive". But even if they were to have a large police force, what would be inherently wrong with that? Isn't law and order a good thing? Or are you assuming that just because they're employed by the Chinese State that no police officer can be good? That would be painting with rather a large brush, wouldn't it? > expensive great firewall Source that the Great Firewall is expensive. Is it more expensive than the enormous NSA Utah Data Center and the innumerable data pipes which feed it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center > Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. By China, you mean the Communist Party of China I presume. Because otherwise you'd be talking about a civil war which is clearly not the case. It's true that the CPC brooks very little outright dissent, and it's true that the CPC's regime is virtually totalitarian when it comes to political ideology and expression. But to say that the CPC is at war with its own population is bonkers. It's well documented that there are tens of thousands of demonstrations a year so it would be incorrect to claim that the regime is 100% totalitarian (like N. Korea, for instance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China > This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Unsubstantiated balderdash. We can see from the USA's ever-increasing deficit mountain owing to the enormous and ever-increasing Defense budget that there is no Earthly way this claim of yours is true. The USA's many foreign misadventures (a lovely way of articulating something that has destroyed millions of lives and caused untold suffering) are collectively easily more expensive than the CPC's ongoing dissident surveillance, suppression and security apparatus. “The bill, which passed 85-10 in a massive show of bipartisan support, represents a considerable boost in defense spending across the board – roughly $82 billion just for next year. The annual increase by itself is bigger than the annual defense budget of Russia ($61 billion) and the two-year jump of over $165 billion eclipses the entire defense budget of China ($150 billion).” https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/can-you-think-of-any-other-ways-to-spend-716-billion-666079/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/can-you-... > Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice. Given the incorrect premises undoubtedly your conclusion is incorrect.
- vkou 8y ago
  Even including the internment camps, the US still has the largest per-capita prison population in the world. The UK has, for many years, had the most extensive physical surveillance system in the world, with the NSA having one of the more extensive digital surveillance systems.[1] The Department of Defense employs 3.2 million people, 2.2 million of which are military (Active and otherwise). US police forces employ another 1 million. [2] In contrast, China has ~1.6 million police officers (In a country four times more populous then the US), and ~2.3 million people in the military (Active and otherwise). There's probably a million or so of hanger-on people working in various administrative roles - but with China - who really knows? The United States has been at war with enemies, internal, and external, for most of its existence. It is, as of Q1, 2019, fighting a few shooting wars against external enemies (Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis), and non-shooting wars against a larger number of other external enemies, as well as internal ones (African Americans, illegal immigrants, and, of course, working class people of all stripes.) If anything, the list of reasons you've given are the bullet points for why the American empire, as it exists today, is unsustainable, and is about to fall apart under its own weight. [3] [1] Both, of course, are irrelevant budgetary rounding errors. So is the GFC. [2] If you've ever turned on the radio - or the television, have you ever noticed how many businesses specifically advertise, or cater to veterans, and their extended families? That's because nearly everyone in the US is, at most, two steps removed from an active, or former soldier. You don't see those kinds of advertisements in countries that don't have an over-sized military. [3] In reality, it can probably continue on its trajectory for another two decades, or so. All of these bullet points were true in 1999, after all.
  - igravious 8y ago
    The internment camps thing is not an outright lie but it is propaganda: https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report-china-has-massive-internment-camps-for-uighur-muslims/ https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report... Your other points are very well made though.I'm sure your figures are accurate but it'd be great if you could provide sources for them.
  - gscott 8y ago
    No doubt we need to get out of endless wars. It seems easier said then done. As soon as President Trump tried to get out of Syria there was a huge backlash from Government insiders. Eventually China will block the South China Sea trade routes and because we are over-extending ourselves we may find ourselves powerless against it.

calyth2018 8y ago

Use Hong Kong's resources? Have you looked at where HK gets its water, its food? Or how many of the listings on the exchange are China related companies?

gscott 8y ago
Financial resources... not physical resources.

ngcc_hk 8y ago

Yes they are. Got 100 billion dollars reserve to get. As regards water hker paid more than Israel getting theirs. Abd most foods try to get non-chinese if they can.