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The article comes from CDM which is a music production website, MacBooks are very popular in that field, and basically all audio producers use external audio in

The article comes from CDM which is a music production website, MacBooks are very popular in that field, and basically all audio producers use external audio interfaces, it's not an uncommon use case. This is not the first time that this type of issues happens (from memory, last year an OSX update broke compatibility with Native Instruments Maschine, a very popular music software). So I think the point that the article is trying to make, is that music producers are one of the most Apple-leaning crowds, and yet they feel like they are being ignored by Apple. But at the same time I understand your point, this is a small market in the grand scheme of things.

iainmerrick 8y ago
music producers are one of the most Apple-leaning crowds, and yet they feel like they are being ignored by Apple. [...] this is a small market in the grand scheme of things. This is the same point that’s often made about developers. But if it’s not developers and it’s not music producers, what is the large market for Macs that dwarfs everything else? And are they at least getting the products and features they want?
- unmole 8y ago
  > what is the large market for Macs that dwarfs everything else? Hipsters?
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    You are mixing up artisan single origin drip coffee with Macs.
- duado 8y ago
  The main market for Macs are people who want an expensive-looking, high perceived quality machine for emails, Facebook, and Slack.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnthonBerg 8y ago
    Do you have data to support that claim?
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Pretty much what I use my macbook air for - £900 back in 2013, battery still lasts several hours. The electrical tape over the webcam reduces the 'expensive looking' part. For real work on the road I use my t410s and ubuntu (although the hinge has now gone, which is a right pain), but most of the time I do real work I'm at home and use my z440 HP workstation (also with ubuntu)
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    And Brew, Postgres, Atom, VIM, VirtualBox, tmux, fish and probably 100.000 more things. Why do you think Brew exists and with such stats??[1] 1. https://formulae.brew.sh/analytics/install/365d/ https://formulae.brew.sh/analytics/install/365d/
- bonestamp2 8y ago
  > what is the large market for Macs There are legitimate reasons to buy macs, but I'd say most people want them because they look nice and they consider them a status symbol.
- blihp 8y ago
  Consumers. (i.e. casual computer users who aren't terribly demanding in any particular dimension) Unfortunately they've been flocking in for the 'just works' Apple reputation as it is being un-earned by Apple. But for many in this group, it's probably good enough vs. what they were using before.
  - stefanfisk 8y ago
    They are so far ahead of Microsoft when it comes to not annoying of frustrating regular users that they can probably fall for a decade before people start abandoning the platform in any significant numbers. I just tried switching from my MBP to a Surface Laptop, and the bullshit that win 10 makes you deal with is just insane O_O
    - StreamBright 8y ago
      Same here, I have Windows VMs for work but even Skype is a piece of crap that forces me to reboot the VMs regularly while having serious bugs that interrupt my meetings. 9/10 meetings are starting with fixing Skype issues. If people were serious about not wasting their time Skype would be not used in businesses at all.
    - setquk 8y ago
      I disagree with this actually. I've had a MacBook for a number of years and bought a new one (a 2018 MacBook Air). The keyboard on it was awful and stopped working properly resulting in duplicate key hits. I was also fighting half of the OSX software at this point. Mail was getting buggy, iPhoto is just horrid and I'm not even going to start writing the massive rant about Pages / Numbers. Alas I took the MBA back and got a refund and grabbed my spare Thinkpad T440 out of the cupboard and put windows 10 on it. The OS is a shell to run Chrome, Excel, Word, Putty, iTunes, kicad, LTspice, WSJTX and I use Fastmail for mail. Literally nothing gets in my way. It just works. And everything like photos and videos are in FILES not weird opaque containers and buggy as crap apps. The CPU is about the same speed, I've got more RAM in this, it's got a FHD display which is good enough and the keyboard is amazing compared to anything Apple had to offer. Plus it cost me literally 1/5th of the cost. Also comparing OSX to windows, you can actually mostly drive windows from the keyboard without resorting to hand warping shortcut combinations reminiscent of Megadrive Streetfighter cheat codes. I think after switching back I just had stockholm syndrome.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Lots of salt in this thread. I have a Mac because I enjoy it the most for software development. It's not a status symbol because, well, almost everyone here has a Mac. The alternatives are Windows-based laptops - who often lag behind software development support (e.g. ports), or Linux which is still just not good enough for desktop use. I use Windows at home for not-development and have used both Windows and Linux for software development so this isn't a biased opinion. The hardware budget from my employer also helps.
  - madsbuch 8y ago
    I have been using linux desktops for almost 10 years as my primary environments. When I occasionally return to windows, I find that it is less usable for how I utilize my computer.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      Funny I look at Linux on the desktop as less and less usable as things like systemd and KDE 4 and whatever version of Gnome that's equally broken.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    > Linux which is still just not good enough for desktop use. For you perhaps. I've used desktop/laptop linux for nearly 20 years and it works just fine, millions of others do too.
    - Shaddox 8y ago
      After the windows 10 blunders lately I decided to give Linux on the desktop another shot. Decided to go with Ubuntu since it's the most popular distro so there's more likely to be support for it. Developer tooling is really damn nice and using the command line is a joy. With proton on steam I can play a lot of the games I like. But no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get sound to work properly. I'm using a FiiO E10K and a pair of Sennheiser HD650 and no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get it to sound right. I tried editing whatever configuration file I could find and I still couldn't get it to sound not choppy. Eventually I gave up and went back on windows. Maybe when I'll change my amp I'll give it another try. I'm glad it's working for you though.
deng 8y ago
This glitch is just another nail in the coffin for using Macs in professional audio setups. Another serious issue is the massively outdated Mac Pro. Yes, a new one will come this year, but many people have switched already. See for instance https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2019/2/7/pro-tools-users-abandoning-apple-mac-for-microsoft-windows-new-poll-shows-alarming-results https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2019/2/7/pro-tool...
- gumbi_nz 8y ago
  I find that truly bizarre. Would people seriously prefer to run a commercial studio and Pro Tools on a windows machine? I've run Logic across a number of versions on various Mac Pros and they're rock solid. I could almost guarantee a very different experience on a PC ....
  - deng 8y ago
    I find it truly bizarre that there are people who actually still buy a Mac Pro. Just look at the shop page. They sell that thing for 4k$ with 16GB RAM and a 256GB SSD. It's completely bonkers. If you need a high-powered audio machine with dedicated PCI-E ports today(!), there's simply no alternative to a Windows PC. And yes, Windows can do audio just fine; you either invest the work and carefully choose components and build it yourself, or you buy it readily from 3XS, VisionDAW, whatever.
    - StreamBright 8y ago
      There used to be some timing issues with Windows audio 10 years ago that forced people to go for alternatives but I think it got fixed in Windows 7. Now Apple's ignorance and total lack of innovation makes people move to Windows. I think it just shows that market forces work.
      - deng 8y ago
        Yes, Windows used to be terrible when it comes to audio, but that was a long time ago. Of course, any badly written driver can still destroy everything, that is why you have to choose hardware carefully. But with a good ASIO driver you will achieve very low latencies without problems.
rbanffy 8y ago
> Last year an OSX update broke compatibility with Native Instruments Maschine When you sell packaged software you'd better make sure it runs with the next version of the OS. All registered Apple software developers have access to beta software, including OSs, for a very long time before launch, precisely to prevent things like this.
- timc3 8y ago
  It actually caused problems a large percentage of the most popular audio software and it was interesting to see which software developers could get the software out first. The trouble with the beta was it wasn't exactly the same as what shipped which caused delays of several months in most instances.
- mastazi 8y ago
  I remember NI saying that there were issues accessing the beta so they (like other SW houses) were not prepared. I will try to find it and post a link if I'm successful Edit: I could only find articles from 3rd party sources - NI did not release the statement on their website, but through their newsletter. For example it is mentioned here: https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/critical-compatibility-warning-with-the-upcoming-mac-os-x-10-11-el-capitan-upgrade.262053/ https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/critical-co... Also, I said "from memory [...] last year" but it was 2015! Wow, time flies! :-O
puranjay 8y ago
Not just the hardware. Apple also makes the second most popular DAW. It's a billion dollar business for them.
- mastazi 8y ago
  Good point, I forgot to mention. Yes Logic is very popular.

iainmerrick 8y ago

music producers are one of the most Apple-leaning crowds, and yet they feel like they are being ignored by Apple. [...] this is a small market in the grand scheme of things. This is the same point that’s often made about developers. But if it’s not developers and it’s not music producers, what is the large market for Macs that dwarfs everything else? And are they at least getting the products and features they want?

unmole 8y ago
> what is the large market for Macs that dwarfs everything else? Hipsters?
- StreamBright 8y ago
  You are mixing up artisan single origin drip coffee with Macs.
duado 8y ago
The main market for Macs are people who want an expensive-looking, high perceived quality machine for emails, Facebook, and Slack.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- AnthonBerg 8y ago
  Do you have data to support that claim?
- isostatic 8y ago
  Pretty much what I use my macbook air for - £900 back in 2013, battery still lasts several hours. The electrical tape over the webcam reduces the 'expensive looking' part. For real work on the road I use my t410s and ubuntu (although the hinge has now gone, which is a right pain), but most of the time I do real work I'm at home and use my z440 HP workstation (also with ubuntu)
- StreamBright 8y ago
  And Brew, Postgres, Atom, VIM, VirtualBox, tmux, fish and probably 100.000 more things. Why do you think Brew exists and with such stats??[1] 1. https://formulae.brew.sh/analytics/install/365d/ https://formulae.brew.sh/analytics/install/365d/
bonestamp2 8y ago
> what is the large market for Macs There are legitimate reasons to buy macs, but I'd say most people want them because they look nice and they consider them a status symbol.
blihp 8y ago
Consumers. (i.e. casual computer users who aren't terribly demanding in any particular dimension) Unfortunately they've been flocking in for the 'just works' Apple reputation as it is being un-earned by Apple. But for many in this group, it's probably good enough vs. what they were using before.
- stefanfisk 8y ago
  They are so far ahead of Microsoft when it comes to not annoying of frustrating regular users that they can probably fall for a decade before people start abandoning the platform in any significant numbers. I just tried switching from my MBP to a Surface Laptop, and the bullshit that win 10 makes you deal with is just insane O_O
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    Same here, I have Windows VMs for work but even Skype is a piece of crap that forces me to reboot the VMs regularly while having serious bugs that interrupt my meetings. 9/10 meetings are starting with fixing Skype issues. If people were serious about not wasting their time Skype would be not used in businesses at all.
  - setquk 8y ago
    I disagree with this actually. I've had a MacBook for a number of years and bought a new one (a 2018 MacBook Air). The keyboard on it was awful and stopped working properly resulting in duplicate key hits. I was also fighting half of the OSX software at this point. Mail was getting buggy, iPhoto is just horrid and I'm not even going to start writing the massive rant about Pages / Numbers. Alas I took the MBA back and got a refund and grabbed my spare Thinkpad T440 out of the cupboard and put windows 10 on it. The OS is a shell to run Chrome, Excel, Word, Putty, iTunes, kicad, LTspice, WSJTX and I use Fastmail for mail. Literally nothing gets in my way. It just works. And everything like photos and videos are in FILES not weird opaque containers and buggy as crap apps. The CPU is about the same speed, I've got more RAM in this, it's got a FHD display which is good enough and the keyboard is amazing compared to anything Apple had to offer. Plus it cost me literally 1/5th of the cost. Also comparing OSX to windows, you can actually mostly drive windows from the keyboard without resorting to hand warping shortcut combinations reminiscent of Megadrive Streetfighter cheat codes. I think after switching back I just had stockholm syndrome.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Lots of salt in this thread. I have a Mac because I enjoy it the most for software development. It's not a status symbol because, well, almost everyone here has a Mac. The alternatives are Windows-based laptops - who often lag behind software development support (e.g. ports), or Linux which is still just not good enough for desktop use. I use Windows at home for not-development and have used both Windows and Linux for software development so this isn't a biased opinion. The hardware budget from my employer also helps.
- madsbuch 8y ago
  I have been using linux desktops for almost 10 years as my primary environments. When I occasionally return to windows, I find that it is less usable for how I utilize my computer.
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    Funny I look at Linux on the desktop as less and less usable as things like systemd and KDE 4 and whatever version of Gnome that's equally broken.
- isostatic 8y ago
  > Linux which is still just not good enough for desktop use. For you perhaps. I've used desktop/laptop linux for nearly 20 years and it works just fine, millions of others do too.
  - Shaddox 8y ago
    After the windows 10 blunders lately I decided to give Linux on the desktop another shot. Decided to go with Ubuntu since it's the most popular distro so there's more likely to be support for it. Developer tooling is really damn nice and using the command line is a joy. With proton on steam I can play a lot of the games I like. But no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get sound to work properly. I'm using a FiiO E10K and a pair of Sennheiser HD650 and no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get it to sound right. I tried editing whatever configuration file I could find and I still couldn't get it to sound not choppy. Eventually I gave up and went back on windows. Maybe when I'll change my amp I'll give it another try. I'm glad it's working for you though.

deng 8y ago

This glitch is just another nail in the coffin for using Macs in professional audio setups. Another serious issue is the massively outdated Mac Pro. Yes, a new one will come this year, but many people have switched already. See for instance https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2019/2/7/pro-tools-users-abandoning-apple-mac-for-microsoft-windows-new-poll-shows-alarming-results https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2019/2/7/pro-tool...

gumbi_nz 8y ago
I find that truly bizarre. Would people seriously prefer to run a commercial studio and Pro Tools on a windows machine? I've run Logic across a number of versions on various Mac Pros and they're rock solid. I could almost guarantee a very different experience on a PC ....
- deng 8y ago
  I find it truly bizarre that there are people who actually still buy a Mac Pro. Just look at the shop page. They sell that thing for 4k$ with 16GB RAM and a 256GB SSD. It's completely bonkers. If you need a high-powered audio machine with dedicated PCI-E ports today(!), there's simply no alternative to a Windows PC. And yes, Windows can do audio just fine; you either invest the work and carefully choose components and build it yourself, or you buy it readily from 3XS, VisionDAW, whatever.
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    There used to be some timing issues with Windows audio 10 years ago that forced people to go for alternatives but I think it got fixed in Windows 7. Now Apple's ignorance and total lack of innovation makes people move to Windows. I think it just shows that market forces work.
    - deng 8y ago
      Yes, Windows used to be terrible when it comes to audio, but that was a long time ago. Of course, any badly written driver can still destroy everything, that is why you have to choose hardware carefully. But with a good ASIO driver you will achieve very low latencies without problems.

rbanffy 8y ago

> Last year an OSX update broke compatibility with Native Instruments Maschine When you sell packaged software you'd better make sure it runs with the next version of the OS. All registered Apple software developers have access to beta software, including OSs, for a very long time before launch, precisely to prevent things like this.

timc3 8y ago
It actually caused problems a large percentage of the most popular audio software and it was interesting to see which software developers could get the software out first. The trouble with the beta was it wasn't exactly the same as what shipped which caused delays of several months in most instances.
mastazi 8y ago
I remember NI saying that there were issues accessing the beta so they (like other SW houses) were not prepared. I will try to find it and post a link if I'm successful Edit: I could only find articles from 3rd party sources - NI did not release the statement on their website, but through their newsletter. For example it is mentioned here: https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/critical-compatibility-warning-with-the-upcoming-mac-os-x-10-11-el-capitan-upgrade.262053/ https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/critical-co... Also, I said "from memory [...] last year" but it was 2015! Wow, time flies! :-O

puranjay 8y ago

Not just the hardware. Apple also makes the second most popular DAW. It's a billion dollar business for them.

mastazi 8y ago
Good point, I forgot to mention. Yes Logic is very popular.