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China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y agoI suppose it's just simple math that multiple Bay Areas > Bay Area.
- esturk 8y agoI wonder if the mainland will ever force either of the 2 ex-colonies to convert into using the "right hand road" orientation? That would be an interesting experiment.
- NamTaf 8y agoHopefully not, with any luck they learnt from the last time they tried this [1]. Besides, it's basically a free-for-all at times outside the major cities anyway. Additionally, in reality it's not that great a problem - see the UK's connection to the Continent. I guess if the New Territories ever get fully absorbed back into the Mainland, then the border delineation might be tempting to erase and that'll cause problems. edit: That said, Japan has pulled it off before [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_the_road_in_China#Drive_on_the_Right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_the_road_in_China#Dri... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/730_(transport) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/730_(transport)
- ksec 8y agoWhy would they want to do that? I would bet lots of people will revolt, forcing them to drive on the wrong side of the road.
- bobthepanda 8y agoDriving rates are pretty low in HK and Macau because the cost of car ownership is so high (namely, the cost of a parking space) and public transit/taxis are so good. So I don’t think you’d get much pushback from actual drivers.
- lvturner 8y agoDespite this, the roads are an overcrowded nightmare (Hong Kong specifically, haven't driven in Macau) where no one really follows the existing rules terribly well. I have no doubt what so ever such a move would result in chaos and fatalities.
- CathayRe 8y ago>So I don’t think you’d get much pushback from actual drivers. At this rate, they might as well force all the people in HK to Speak Mandarin, Write in Simplified Chinese. Or get rid of them all together if they don't comply. Oh there is a word for it, Genocide.
- spacehunt 8y agoPrivate car drivers don't have votes anyway so even if there's pushback the governments don't care. The taxis, logistics and trucking industries do have political clout, though, and they will be the ones pushing back.
- bobthepanda 8y agoLogistics and trucking involve a lot of cross border trips. I don't know that they would mind all that much.
- spacehunt 8y agoIt messes with their established routes with no gain (as you said they already make cross border trips without issue.)
- baybal2 8y agoAre you really sure???!!! HK has like one of world's most ridiculous car culture...
- kabouseng 8y agoAs long as they do it incrementally it should be fine. For the first week only transition motorcycles to drive on the other side, then the week after the cars, then a week later transition the trucks and heavy vehicles to the other side...
- nf05papsjfVbc 8y agoThere is no better way to deliver humour than with a straight face. Well done, sir!
- Waterluvian 8y agoThat surely is an optimal way to transition them all to the Other Side, and fast.
- technofiend 8y agoOh, so Bangalore rules.
- entity345 8y agoSweden did exactly that in 1967.
- darrenf 8y agoAs well as the fact that their neighbours drove on the right, the argument was made that switching sides would reduce accidents due to Swedes mostly owning left-hand drive cars. There were fewer accidents initially, but things returned to historic levels pretty soon thereafter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H
- Cyph0n 8y agoSamoa did the opposite in 2009. The main reason was to have easier access to the (relatively) nearby Australian vehicle market.
- spacehunt 8y agoNot sure if it's ever practical to do so -- a lot of the built up infrastructure here is asymmetrical.
- JumpCrisscross 8y agoScary from an investment perspective. Imagine having property rights under Hong Kong law transitioned to the lawlessness of Beijing.
- cylinder 8y agoWell so far it's been good for HK owners because it allows mainland Chinese to stash their capital in HK.
- johnzim 8y agoLess good for average HKers though...
- entity345 8y agoWon't make any difference. They are not stupid.
- arcticbull 8y agoTo play devils advocate, Hong Kong has become comparatively much less valuable to Beijing over the years. It represented 27% of all of China's GDP in 1993, and today it's less than 3%. [1] Beijing has become more forceful in its treatment of HK of late, with for instance, staffing the high-speed rail station in Kowloon with China Police (forbidden under basic law). I think what happens next is unclear. Is it still worth the trouble? It's not like the UK (which is, to date, responsible for enforcing the terms of the handover) can do anything more than write a strongly worded memo to Beijing. Like they did when those booksellers disappeared [2] or when the Chinese billionaire living in the Four Seasons on the island 'returned to seek medical treatment on the mainland' [3]. [1] http://www.ejinsight.com/20170609-hk-versus-china-gdp-a-sobering-reality/ http://www.ejinsight.com/20170609-hk-versus-china-gdp-a-sobe... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/03/magazine/the-case-of-hong-kongs-missing-booksellers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/03/magazine/the-case-of-hong... [3] https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/02/01/chinese-billionaire-abducted-by-chinese-security-agents-from-hong-kong-four-seasons-hotel-reports/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/02/01/chinese-billionaire-ab...
- baybal2 8y agoMore in detail: http://szdaily.sznews.com/PC/layout/201902/19/node_01.html#content_566524 http://szdaily.sznews.com/PC/layout/201902/19/node_01.html#c... http://szdaily.sznews.com/PC/layout/201902/19/node_03.html#content_566532 http://szdaily.sznews.com/PC/layout/201902/19/node_03.html#c...
- SCAQTony 8y agoChina is fast becoming a fascist capitalistic country with the government acting as CEO or a board member with a majority of stock: "...Hong Kong will set up financing and investment platform for the Belt and Road Initiative..." Well, what if they don't want too?
- gscott 8y agoIt seems China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI and is going to use Hong Kong resources now... The rest of the objectives just seem contrived.
- vkou 8y agoWhat makes the BRI an over-extension? How does it compare to the economic and military extension of the other super-power?
- gscott 8y agoNot only do you have BRI but massive internment camps, massively expensive surveillance systems, massive number of police officers, expensive great firewall. Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice.
- igravious 8y ago> China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI Unsubstantiated conjecture. Only time and history will tell. It is quite likely that the long-term strategic benefits to China will be (to use your favourite word) massive. Witness the outcomes of the Marshall Plan for a direct historical analogue. > massive internment camps A mainstream media falsehood one would be wise not to parrot: https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report-china-has-massive-internment-camps-for-uighur-muslims/ https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/no-the-un-did-not-report... > massively expensive surveillance systems Given the Snowden revelations it is clear that China is unexceptional in this regard. Also, source for "massively expensive". Define "massively". > massive number of police officers Source for this claim? Define "massive". But even if they were to have a large police force, what would be inherently wrong with that? Isn't law and order a good thing? Or are you assuming that just because they're employed by the Chinese State that no police officer can be good? That would be painting with rather a large brush, wouldn't it? > expensive great firewall Source that the Great Firewall is expensive. Is it more expensive than the enormous NSA Utah Data Center and the innumerable data pipes which feed it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center > Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. By China, you mean the Communist Party of China I presume. Because otherwise you'd be talking about a civil war which is clearly not the case. It's true that the CPC brooks very little outright dissent, and it's true that the CPC's regime is virtually totalitarian when it comes to political ideology and expression. But to say that the CPC is at war with its own population is bonkers. It's well documented that there are tens of thousands of demonstrations a year so it would be incorrect to claim that the regime is 100% totalitarian (like N. Korea, for instance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China > This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Unsubstantiated balderdash. We can see from the USA's ever-increasing deficit mountain owing to the enormous and ever-increasing Defense budget that there is no Earthly way this claim of yours is true. The USA's many foreign misadventures (a lovely way of articulating something that has destroyed millions of lives and caused untold suffering) are collectively easily more expensive than the CPC's ongoing dissident surveillance, suppression and security apparatus. “The bill, which passed 85-10 in a massive show of bipartisan support, represents a considerable boost in defense spending across the board – roughly $82 billion just for next year. The annual increase by itself is bigger than the annual defense budget of Russia ($61 billion) and the two-year jump of over $165 billion eclipses the entire defense budget of China ($150 billion).” https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/can-you-think-of-any-other-ways-to-spend-716-billion-666079/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/can-you-... > Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice. Given the incorrect premises undoubtedly your conclusion is incorrect.
- dmix 8y agoNon-paywall https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-unveils-plan-tie-hong-131533515.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-unveils-plan-tie-hong-1...
- voidreaper 8y agoHere's an interactive map of the growing Pearl River Delta megalopolis: https://geoshen.com/posts/the-pearl-river-delta-megalopolis https://geoshen.com/posts/the-pearl-river-delta-megalopolis
- emptyfile 8y ago>The PRD megalopolis is an urban area of gargantuan proportions with few like it in existance. >It's home to 65 million people, a population similar to that of the United Kingdom. >It covers an area around 55,000 km^2, about the size of the country of Croatia. >The GDP of the PRD megalopolis clocks in at over $1.2 trillion, about the same as Mexico. Well damn, I live in Croatia, can't even make a mental image of that amount of people. For comparison its the same area size as New York state with over 3x the population.
- daliusd 8y agoAnd Croatia's town (like Split) leaves impression like a really crowded place. At least for me as person from North Europe country.
- sbacic 8y agoThat's because of atrocious urban planning. Traditional Mediterranean streets were never meant for cars. Municipal governments, instead of having a clear strategy where historic city centers are preserved and everything else is bulldozed to make room for proper, modern urban design have instead opted to have no plan whatsoever. As a consequence, there is now nowhere to park, the streets are hard to navigate (even for locals) and things like sidewalks and bike lanes are pure fantasy in many of Croatia's coastal cities.
- wbl 8y agoCar oriented cities are a bad idea.
- emptyfile 8y ago
- chottocharaii 8y agoI heard from a Chinese legal academic that when China is diplomatically isolated, the two provinces tend to be left alone to enjoy the benefits of their independent foreign ties. When China is more politically feeling comfortable, that is when the pressure for conformity tends to come from Beijing.
- geowwy 8y agoThe opposite seems to be true right now. China's relations with the West are a bit strained at the moment.
- RavlaAlvar 8y agoI am the unveiling of this plan signals an imminent US-CN deal.
- culturestate 8y agoThe relationship looks tense, but Chinese leadership seems to feel that they have everything under control; like this particular kerfuffle is an unavoidable step on their march toward becoming a superpower. I would be comfortable if I were seeing the world that way, too.
- arcticbull 8y agoIndeed, Beijing's leadership tends to take a very long term view of growth plans. This lines up with my mental model of how they operate.
- Proven 8y ago> “The difficulties in agreeing reforms that both advance the cause of regional integration and are palatable to officials in Guangdong, Hong Kong, Macau and the central government will be the key challenge.” It is obvious that the central government is the main problem and hindrance to development and freedom. Without it in the picture, those regions would have already connected. But what is more likely to happen is the centralizers will do what they deem to be necessary to create a larger, and still centralized version of Guangdong. Under the disguise of economic development Hong Kong's freedoms are bound to shrink. "If you're against political centralization, you're against prosperity"
- porpoisely 8y agoFirstly, this plan has been unveiled for a while now. Secondly, this plan is as much hong kong/macau trying to "tie" itself closer to the mainland as vice versa. But bloomberg being bloomberg, we get a dose of stale news mixed with propaganda. Thirdly, rather than hong kong and macau being tied closer to the mainland, it's really the pearl river delta cities just integrating together as you'd normally expect cities in region to do. Here is a 4 year old video on what the aspirations of the pearl river delta are. https://youtu.be/gNE7VPtvfbI?t=1209 https://youtu.be/gNE7VPtvfbI?t=1209 Another major megalopolis that china is building is centered around beijing. https://youtu.be/gNE7VPtvfbI?t=19 https://youtu.be/gNE7VPtvfbI?t=19
- xvilka 8y agoThere's also Yangtze River Delta (YRD) emerging megalopolice, now planning to connect subway systems of Shanghai and Suzhou. In fact it is more populous and economically successful than PRD.
- spacehunt 8y agoThe actual document was only released by the PRC State Council in the afternoon of February 18 2019. Granted it's been over 24 hours by now, but it's hardly stale.
- microcolonel 8y agoRest in peace. Hopefully the Republic of China can manage to resist them.
- rrrazdan 8y agoThe headline is a little alarmist. I read the plan and the plan completely acknowledges the one country, two systems principle.
- jonathankoren 8y agoThat really doesn’t carry a lot of weight. I suggest you read up on the past 20 years of Hong Kong Mainland relations, in particular the undermining of judicial independence, and other civil and political rights. Here’s a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong%E2%80%93Mainland_China_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong%E2%80%93Mainland_Chi...
- AimForTheBushes 8y agoChoosing who is allowed to run for government doesn't really acknowledge the two system principle.
- spacehunt 8y agoInterestingly the plan mandates the use of IPv6 pretty much everywhere, as well as FTTH to all homes in all cities across the PRD. It doesn't give the reason why these specific technologies are mentioned in what's meant to be a strategic plan though.
- morpheuskafka 8y agoToo bad everyday citizens and businesses can't access the services they want with it, most of the bandwidth will probably be used for surveillance and control.
- xvilka 8y agoThey actually can. IPv6 support was recently enabled by many ISPs, online services and mobile applications.
- spacehunt 8y agoI don't see anything that implies extending the Great Firewall to cover the SARs, so fingers crossed on that one. FWIW I already have 1Gbps FTTH dual-stack Internet at home here in HK.
- therealforsen 8y agoI would bet the reason it was mentioned was to make China sound technologically advanced. Similar to when they spread the lie about being a leader in green technology around when the Olympics were hosted there. They established faux solar panels on street lights and then took them back down 2 years later. There's no reason to believe China about that detail or anything really.
- ngcc_hk 8y agoSad date of hk.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- TeckMonkeyLOL 8y agoDo western monkeys really care about Hong kong ?
- TeckMonkeyLOL 8y agowill western monkey defend Hong Kong at any price?
- seabrookmx 8y agoHonest question for someone who doesn't know the area well.. Macau and HK are both Cantonese speaking regions. Given that the Infrastructure updates in the area make everything "closer" (in terms of travel time etc), what impact is this having on language? Is this a Montreal type thing where most people are bilingual enough where it doesn't matter? Is Cantonese a de-facto street language in these South Chinese cities even if Mandarin is the official language?
- TeckMonkeyLOL 8y agowhy would you think that Mandarin and Cantonese are two language
- jacobolus 8y agoPeople originally from that region speak Cantonese, but from what I understand most people in Shenzhen are immigrants from elsewhere in China, and predominantly speak Mandarin.
- L_Rahman 8y agoWe have an existing example to extrapolate from. Cantonese is the native dialect in Guangzhou and it's fading away in the current generation of children in no small part because of government pressure in schools. It's likely that something similar will happen in Macau and HK. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136237/why-has-cantonese-fallen-out-favour-guangzhou-youngsters https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136237/why-...
- jhedwards 8y agoI'm not terribly familiar with that area but I know a bit about Chinese languages. HK and Macau are adjacent to Guangdong which is a Cantonese speaking province. There are many dialects within Cantonese, so someone from Taishan will speak a dialect of Cantonese that will probably be mutually intelligible with HK Cantonese but probably also has lots of major differences. I found a cool map of them on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Chinese#Distribution_and_variation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Chinese#Distribution_and_v... From what I know, as education improves and movement of people across large areas increases Mandarin becomes more and more common. As for movement within a Cantonese speaking area, I would guess that it might result in the adoption of a more common "standard" Cantonese over regional dialects in parallel with the increasing prevalence of Mandarin.