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The specifics matter because that's the subject under discussion. A person is an atheist because of the specific things they do to be one. The use of the word "

by Retra 8y ago

The specifics matter because that's the subject under discussion. A person is an atheist because of the specific things they do to be one. The use of the word "atheist" is what dictates which facts are relevant to the determination, not what is convenient to me. I'd be having the exact same discussion if we were talking about what makes an auto mechanic and auto mechanic. Particularly if someone started by trying to argue that saying "I am an auto mechanic" is the only relevant fact to the matter. To be an auto mechanic, you have to act like one. That is, you have to do the things which fit the expectations and meaning of the term. That's it. That's all I've been discussing this whole time. You keep trying to drag it into the weeds because you're offended or something. Lets end this tedious conversation already.

vinceguidry 8y ago
Fine, whatever. I shouldn't expect an atheist to be able to be specific about what a theist is. After all, you need belief to even be able to begin to understand it anyway. Sure, ok, let's talk about atheism instead. If only so you can have a sure footing. I'll ask the questions so you can answer. > A person is an atheist because of the specific things they do to be one. That claim is... fascinating. It hearkens all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. Faith, what you call belief, is what makes you a Christian. According to you, works, actions, is what makes you an atheist. Most atheists tell me that it's lack of belief / faith that makes you an atheist. You're literally the first atheist in my 15 years of exploring the space that has said to me that it's actions that makes you an atheist, not lack of belief. I have never even once contemplated that atheism could be so like Islam in this way. So understand that your claim is quite the interesting one to me. So are you saying that there are atheists in name but not in deed? That there are atheists who don't toe the party line, so shouldn't be considered "real" atheists? Because that's the space you're inhabiting here when you claim it's by action and not by belief. It would be a rather fun debate space to play in, markedly different from the usual one where I have to take ever finer slices out of what the meaning of "belief" is so as to show that the atheist's position necessarily reflects belief instead of the lack thereof, and then showing that the "agnostic atheist" is belied by his actual debate style rather than his stated (non-) beliefs.
- deleted 8y ago
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- Retra 8y ago
  First off, I would never equate "faith" with "belief", nor would most atheists in my experience. As human beings, we have to make decisions. Sometimes we have to make decisions without the time, experience, or resources to make them in an optimal way. So we can make decisions based on what we know about the world, or we can make decisions based on ignorance. Furthermore, we often have to justify our decisions to other people or against our own moral principles. Belief is what your brain does with prior knowledge and experiences that you have, and it is often invoked to justify decisions made with experience. On the other hand, we sometimes have to justify decision that are based in ignorance. We have a really good word for this: hope. Usually you're just getting lucky. Or you say "I did this because I didn't know what else to do, and I didn't know how to find something better." (You can also call hope a sort of emotion, if you're just commenting on other peoples' decisions rather than evaluating your own.) You're hopeful that it will work, even if you don't have any knowledge or experience that it will. Usually, this is not ideal. You'd always rather do the right thing because you know what the right thing is, rather than doing it on accident. There's no way to teach your methods of victory if you only win your battles on accident! Faith is not belief per se, nor is it hope, though it looks a bit like both on the surface. Faith is what happens when you say it is good/important to make decisions based on hope. It is the promotion of ignorance as a virtue, rather than as an unfortunate fact of life which we must work to overcome. Faith is a particular belief that hope is better than knowledge, at least sometimes. If you're having unsatisfying discussions with atheists, it is probably because you're failing to make these distinctions. Most atheists will tell you they believe things. Those beliefs are based in knowledge and experience with the world. They will also tell you they have hope. They will not tell you they have faith, because they don't want to promote ignorance as a virtue.

by Retra 8y ago

vinceguidry 8y ago

Fine, whatever. I shouldn't expect an atheist to be able to be specific about what a theist is. After all, you need belief to even be able to begin to understand it anyway. Sure, ok, let's talk about atheism instead. If only so you can have a sure footing. I'll ask the questions so you can answer. > A person is an atheist because of the specific things they do to be one. That claim is... fascinating. It hearkens all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. Faith, what you call belief, is what makes you a Christian. According to you, works, actions, is what makes you an atheist. Most atheists tell me that it's lack of belief / faith that makes you an atheist. You're literally the first atheist in my 15 years of exploring the space that has said to me that it's actions that makes you an atheist, not lack of belief. I have never even once contemplated that atheism could be so like Islam in this way. So understand that your claim is quite the interesting one to me. So are you saying that there are atheists in name but not in deed? That there are atheists who don't toe the party line, so shouldn't be considered "real" atheists? Because that's the space you're inhabiting here when you claim it's by action and not by belief. It would be a rather fun debate space to play in, markedly different from the usual one where I have to take ever finer slices out of what the meaning of "belief" is so as to show that the atheist's position necessarily reflects belief instead of the lack thereof, and then showing that the "agnostic atheist" is belied by his actual debate style rather than his stated (non-) beliefs.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Retra 8y ago
First off, I would never equate "faith" with "belief", nor would most atheists in my experience. As human beings, we have to make decisions. Sometimes we have to make decisions without the time, experience, or resources to make them in an optimal way. So we can make decisions based on what we know about the world, or we can make decisions based on ignorance. Furthermore, we often have to justify our decisions to other people or against our own moral principles. Belief is what your brain does with prior knowledge and experiences that you have, and it is often invoked to justify decisions made with experience. On the other hand, we sometimes have to justify decision that are based in ignorance. We have a really good word for this: hope. Usually you're just getting lucky. Or you say "I did this because I didn't know what else to do, and I didn't know how to find something better." (You can also call hope a sort of emotion, if you're just commenting on other peoples' decisions rather than evaluating your own.) You're hopeful that it will work, even if you don't have any knowledge or experience that it will. Usually, this is not ideal. You'd always rather do the right thing because you know what the right thing is, rather than doing it on accident. There's no way to teach your methods of victory if you only win your battles on accident! Faith is not belief per se, nor is it hope, though it looks a bit like both on the surface. Faith is what happens when you say it is good/important to make decisions based on hope. It is the promotion of ignorance as a virtue, rather than as an unfortunate fact of life which we must work to overcome. Faith is a particular belief that hope is better than knowledge, at least sometimes. If you're having unsatisfying discussions with atheists, it is probably because you're failing to make these distinctions. Most atheists will tell you they believe things. Those beliefs are based in knowledge and experience with the world. They will also tell you they have hope. They will not tell you they have faith, because they don't want to promote ignorance as a virtue.