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Let's try and run some numbers then. Estimated energy consumption - 46TWh [0]. Average transaction rate seems lower than 4/s at all times so let's use 4 [1]. T

by IanCal 8y ago

Let's try and run some numbers then. Estimated energy consumption - 46TWh [0]. Average transaction rate seems lower than 4/s at all times so let's use 4 [1]. That makes 126M/year. Visa process 111B transactions per year [2] and mastercard 65B [3] for a total of 176B. If those transactions alone were as energy expensive, then that would account for about 64,000 TWh. Global energy consumption (all kinds) is about 110,000 TWh For traditional banking to be more expensive in energy per transaction, it would seem to need to account for more than about 60% of all energy used if all banking were only these card payment services and nothing else. Appreciate any checking of figures or calculations, though unless there's something very wrong the rough outcome should be the same given that I've only included a slice of transactions. [0] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [1] https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/transactions-per-second?timespan=1year&daysAverageString=7 https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/transactions-per-second... [2] https://s1.q4cdn.com/050606653/files/doc_financials/annual/2017/Visa-2017-Annual-Report.pdf https://s1.q4cdn.com/050606653/files/doc_financials/annual/2... [3] https://s2.q4cdn.com/242125233/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4/4Q17-Earnings-Release.pdf https://s2.q4cdn.com/242125233/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4/...

dajohnson89 8y ago
https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/ https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/
- IanCal 8y ago
  I'm not sure how that's relevant to the calculation here.
  - IanCal 8y ago
    This is by far the least productive HN thread I've ever been on. The article just isn't related to a raw energy calculation, as that is not impacted by where the energy comes from. edit - noted. Avoid crypto threads on HN as they're like discussing things on reddit.
    - dajohnson89 8y ago
      you're technically right that the article i linked isn't making the same calculation as you made. I'm not sure why you saw it as a rebuff or some kind of argument for/against. I linked it because i'd imagine that a big concern about blockchain energy usage is the environmental impact.
keymone 8y ago
per Transaction calculations are completely flawed. If transaction cost was the primary goal - bitcoin would have been a centralized mysql database. Decentralized and secure ownership of your assets that doesn’t involve trust, politics and military is what important in bitcoin. And by the way with payment channels all your numbers are irrelevant anyway because your assumption of 4 tx/sec goes out the window. Try again with 4 trillion tx/sec. And keep in mind that there is no upper limit.
- IanCal 8y ago
  > per Transaction calculations are completely flawed They seem fairly important to me, but OK, what metric are you comparing on to claim that the current banking system is using far more raw energy? Bitcoin has a market cap of $70B and daily volume of transactions of $10B. NYSE covers about $20T alone for just 4000 companies. Scaled up, bitcoin would be over 10% of world energy use. SWIFT seems to deal with about $5T per day https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/files/Appendix_D.pdf https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/files/Appendix_D.pdf so that'd be bitcoin taking about 20% of total global energy use if scaled up. By what measure do you want to back up the claim that the current system is far more energy intensive? I'm trying to find one and honestly struggling.
  - keymone 8y ago
    > By what measure do you want to back up the claim that the current system is far more energy intensive? I'm trying to find one and honestly struggling. how much damage financial and environmental have politicians and military have caused over the last 5 thousand years? yep, take that into account in your calculations.
    - IanCal 8y ago
      You made a very specific claim which you seem reluctant to back up so we can leave that there. If you want to discuss in good faith, please try not to shift the goalposts so much. For example, your reply suggests that with crypto there would have been no military or political actions that were environmentally damaging.

by IanCal 8y ago

dajohnson89 8y ago

https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/ https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/

IanCal 8y ago
I'm not sure how that's relevant to the calculation here.
- IanCal 8y ago
  This is by far the least productive HN thread I've ever been on. The article just isn't related to a raw energy calculation, as that is not impacted by where the energy comes from. edit - noted. Avoid crypto threads on HN as they're like discussing things on reddit.
  - dajohnson89 8y ago
    you're technically right that the article i linked isn't making the same calculation as you made. I'm not sure why you saw it as a rebuff or some kind of argument for/against. I linked it because i'd imagine that a big concern about blockchain energy usage is the environmental impact.

keymone 8y ago

per Transaction calculations are completely flawed. If transaction cost was the primary goal - bitcoin would have been a centralized mysql database. Decentralized and secure ownership of your assets that doesn’t involve trust, politics and military is what important in bitcoin. And by the way with payment channels all your numbers are irrelevant anyway because your assumption of 4 tx/sec goes out the window. Try again with 4 trillion tx/sec. And keep in mind that there is no upper limit.

IanCal 8y ago
> per Transaction calculations are completely flawed They seem fairly important to me, but OK, what metric are you comparing on to claim that the current banking system is using far more raw energy? Bitcoin has a market cap of $70B and daily volume of transactions of $10B. NYSE covers about $20T alone for just 4000 companies. Scaled up, bitcoin would be over 10% of world energy use. SWIFT seems to deal with about $5T per day https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/files/Appendix_D.pdf https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/files/Appendix_D.pdf so that'd be bitcoin taking about 20% of total global energy use if scaled up. By what measure do you want to back up the claim that the current system is far more energy intensive? I'm trying to find one and honestly struggling.
- keymone 8y ago
  > By what measure do you want to back up the claim that the current system is far more energy intensive? I'm trying to find one and honestly struggling. how much damage financial and environmental have politicians and military have caused over the last 5 thousand years? yep, take that into account in your calculations.
  - IanCal 8y ago
    You made a very specific claim which you seem reluctant to back up so we can leave that there. If you want to discuss in good faith, please try not to shift the goalposts so much. For example, your reply suggests that with crypto there would have been no military or political actions that were environmentally damaging.