8 ms·

No it isn’t, banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy but also is open for corruption, is run by greedy bankers that governments have

No it isn’t, banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy but also is open for corruption, is run by greedy bankers that governments have to bail out all the time for taxpayers money, etc, etc. current financial system is many orders of magnitude more expensive and dangerous. Suggesting otherwise is not just disingenuous - it is malicious.

root_axis 8y ago
> banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy It uses much more raw energy because it services the financial needs of most of the planet. Bitcoin dubiously services the needs of a handful. This is so obvious that I suspect you're not arguing in good faith.
- keymone 8y ago
  Yeah, way to miss the point. Bitcoin is money where security is expressed in terms of energy. Banking system uses energy and military to achieve the same job. Do i really need to elaborate further?
  - root_axis 8y ago
    I am not missing the point, you're moving the goalposts You: "the banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy" Me: "it uses much more raw energy because it services the financial needs of most of the planet".
    - keymone 8y ago
      No goalposts have moved. Banking system involves politics and military in securing your finances. It is therefore many orders of magnitude more expensive than bitcoin even if you normalize by market cap of transaction volume or pick your own metric. Edit: typos
      - root_axis 8y ago
        Politics and the military are the foundation of all society. Those things won't go away because of cryptocurrency, so repeatedly bringing them up doesn't help your point at all.
        keymone 8y ago
        > Politics and the military are the foundation of all society politics - maybe, military - not necessarily, just an artifact of infancy of our civilization. > Those things won't go away because of cryptocurrency those things will become irrelevant to financial system based on bitcoin, which is good enough for me.
        root_axis 8y ago
        > just an artifact of infancy of our civilization. Just an artifact of all of human history. >those things will become irrelevant to financial system based on bitcoin I don't think there is any point in further discussion; we are simply living in two different realities. The military and the military industrial complex are not going anywhere, certainly not because of cryptocurrency, the notion is laughably absurd.
        keymone 8y ago
        If you try reading my comments again you will realize I’m not claiming military and politics are “going” somewhere because of crypto.
      - iainmerrick 8y ago
        You’ve missed a few steps in your "therefore" there.
        keymone 8y ago
        only for somebody not willing to think about how much damage corrupt (and not corrupt too) politicians and military have inflicted upon this world during short history of human civilization. financial and environmental. if there's a chance to exclude them from the equation on security of financial system - it's a no brainer.
IanCal 8y ago
Let's try and run some numbers then. Estimated energy consumption - 46TWh [0]. Average transaction rate seems lower than 4/s at all times so let's use 4 [1]. That makes 126M/year. Visa process 111B transactions per year [2] and mastercard 65B [3] for a total of 176B. If those transactions alone were as energy expensive, then that would account for about 64,000 TWh. Global energy consumption (all kinds) is about 110,000 TWh For traditional banking to be more expensive in energy per transaction, it would seem to need to account for more than about 60% of all energy used if all banking were only these card payment services and nothing else. Appreciate any checking of figures or calculations, though unless there's something very wrong the rough outcome should be the same given that I've only included a slice of transactions. [0] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [1] https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/transactions-per-second?timespan=1year&daysAverageString=7 https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/transactions-per-second... [2] https://s1.q4cdn.com/050606653/files/doc_financials/annual/2017/Visa-2017-Annual-Report.pdf https://s1.q4cdn.com/050606653/files/doc_financials/annual/2... [3] https://s2.q4cdn.com/242125233/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4/4Q17-Earnings-Release.pdf https://s2.q4cdn.com/242125233/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4/...
- dajohnson89 8y ago
  https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/ https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/
  - IanCal 8y ago
    I'm not sure how that's relevant to the calculation here.
    - IanCal 8y ago
      This is by far the least productive HN thread I've ever been on. The article just isn't related to a raw energy calculation, as that is not impacted by where the energy comes from. edit - noted. Avoid crypto threads on HN as they're like discussing things on reddit.

root_axis 8y ago

> banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy It uses much more raw energy because it services the financial needs of most of the planet. Bitcoin dubiously services the needs of a handful. This is so obvious that I suspect you're not arguing in good faith.

keymone 8y ago
Yeah, way to miss the point. Bitcoin is money where security is expressed in terms of energy. Banking system uses energy and military to achieve the same job. Do i really need to elaborate further?
- root_axis 8y ago
  I am not missing the point, you're moving the goalposts You: "the banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy" Me: "it uses much more raw energy because it services the financial needs of most of the planet".
  - keymone 8y ago
    No goalposts have moved. Banking system involves politics and military in securing your finances. It is therefore many orders of magnitude more expensive than bitcoin even if you normalize by market cap of transaction volume or pick your own metric. Edit: typos
    - root_axis 8y ago
      Politics and the military are the foundation of all society. Those things won't go away because of cryptocurrency, so repeatedly bringing them up doesn't help your point at all.
      - keymone 8y ago
        > Politics and the military are the foundation of all society politics - maybe, military - not necessarily, just an artifact of infancy of our civilization. > Those things won't go away because of cryptocurrency those things will become irrelevant to financial system based on bitcoin, which is good enough for me.
        root_axis 8y ago
        > just an artifact of infancy of our civilization. Just an artifact of all of human history. >those things will become irrelevant to financial system based on bitcoin I don't think there is any point in further discussion; we are simply living in two different realities. The military and the military industrial complex are not going anywhere, certainly not because of cryptocurrency, the notion is laughably absurd.
        keymone 8y ago
        If you try reading my comments again you will realize I’m not claiming military and politics are “going” somewhere because of crypto.
    - iainmerrick 8y ago
      You’ve missed a few steps in your "therefore" there.
      - keymone 8y ago
        only for somebody not willing to think about how much damage corrupt (and not corrupt too) politicians and military have inflicted upon this world during short history of human civilization. financial and environmental. if there's a chance to exclude them from the equation on security of financial system - it's a no brainer.

IanCal 8y ago

Let's try and run some numbers then. Estimated energy consumption - 46TWh [0]. Average transaction rate seems lower than 4/s at all times so let's use 4 [1]. That makes 126M/year. Visa process 111B transactions per year [2] and mastercard 65B [3] for a total of 176B. If those transactions alone were as energy expensive, then that would account for about 64,000 TWh. Global energy consumption (all kinds) is about 110,000 TWh For traditional banking to be more expensive in energy per transaction, it would seem to need to account for more than about 60% of all energy used if all banking were only these card payment services and nothing else. Appreciate any checking of figures or calculations, though unless there's something very wrong the rough outcome should be the same given that I've only included a slice of transactions. [0] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [1] https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/transactions-per-second?timespan=1year&daysAverageString=7 https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/transactions-per-second... [2] https://s1.q4cdn.com/050606653/files/doc_financials/annual/2017/Visa-2017-Annual-Report.pdf https://s1.q4cdn.com/050606653/files/doc_financials/annual/2... [3] https://s2.q4cdn.com/242125233/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4/4Q17-Earnings-Release.pdf https://s2.q4cdn.com/242125233/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4/...

dajohnson89 8y ago
https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/ https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-mining-renewable-coinshares/
- IanCal 8y ago
  I'm not sure how that's relevant to the calculation here.
  - IanCal 8y ago
    This is by far the least productive HN thread I've ever been on. The article just isn't related to a raw energy calculation, as that is not impacted by where the energy comes from. edit - noted. Avoid crypto threads on HN as they're like discussing things on reddit.