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I'm pretty sure it's age discrimination plain and simple. The only time in my life I would have been in great shape for the standard interview process without a

I'm pretty sure it's age discrimination plain and simple. The only time in my life I would have been in great shape for the standard interview process without a good deal of study was a couple years in early graduate school, where nearly all of this "breadth" stuff was fresh in my mind. The relentless scepticism about people's achievements is to some extent understandable (we've all run into the senior person who can't do fizzbuzz), but it ties neatly in with the idea that every new hire should be 25 at most.

cubano 8y ago
Without a doubt it's age discrimination...you've hit the nail on the head. Also, God help you if you have followed a non-traditional career path where you decide at points in your life that you wanted a break from it all. I, too, in 1988, fresh out of my BS in CP with no family or life experiences and a strong desire to code day and night would have sailed past the technical side of these often ridiculous interviews for jobs I could literally do in my sleep now. But now, at 53, not only has Father Time fucked with my ability to sight memorize (something I took totally for granted in my younger years) without even trying, I find it almost impossible to hide my frustration at the ridiculousness of the very idea that I would be unable to do the work required of me for the job... "Ok..we really need someone to fix X and Y on this website, and it would be just great if they could reconfigure Z on the server..." "Well, sure...I first saw X and Y-like issues back in the mid-90s in a networked client-server environment and I did X(x) and Y(x) to fix it, and again saw it in the mid-00s under the LAMP-stack and again fixed it doing X'(x) and Y'(x)...and the server issue is something I've seen over and over again during my 30y+ career..I am 100% certain I can solve these relatively simple issues for you guys..." "Oh...yeah ok...so can you whiteboard a bubblesort in Javascript for us? You have 15 minutes." "???" ...and of course I don't get a callback. Do people think I'm lying about all my experience on my resume or what exactly? It's at the level of life and death for me right now, to be honest. I've been shooting out resume after resume for the past month, and nothing good is happening. All I know for certain is...if the real issue was truly about finding someone who can do the job and fix the problems, there is no way in hell I'd still be looking now.
- knightofmars 8y ago
  They don't want to pay you what they think (the you in their heads think you think) you are worth. That sounds convoluted but I've watched it happen repeatedly. Bill budget IT guy, "What? We need to harden a server? Why do we need to pay this guy over a hundred thousand a year to do that? The internet is full of documentation. Let's hire someone with just enough technical know how to implement it." The reality on the other side is that hiring an experienced engineer has it's risk. I've worked with 20+ years of experience engineers who did it because it was a job and didn't deserve the salary based on their skill set. Companies let this happen, you need to cap positions and then give inflation based raises.
  - mooreds 8y ago
    > The reality on the other side is that hiring an experienced engineer has it's risk. Totally agree and have seen it from the interviewee side. I interviewed in March last year as an experienced engineer, and my network was the number one source of interviews and how I found my current job. Don't neglect your network, folks. As you age, it will become ever more important for your next position.
- fpalmans 8y ago
  It is baffling that someone with over three decades of experience would be expected to go through the same interview process as a recent graduate. When I graduated (over two decades ago, and in Belgium), testing was a regular part of the interviewing process. However, it was understood that this was only done for people with no or very little experience. Later in my career, this fact helped me weed out the jobs which were below my experience level. After stating such and withdrawing candidature for the position, in several cases I was even contacted to come in for a more senior position. The world has certainly changed.
- towaway1138 8y ago
  I'm about your age, and this is very relatable. My last job hunt took about six months. Among the other high points, I passed the on-site day at Google, passed the hiring committee, and then had an executive reach out to quash my hire. I did end up finding something I'm enjoying. Anyway, just wanted to send you some support. Keep your head up and keep going. You really only need one offer.
neilv 8y ago
By accident or design, the "coding tests" seem to discriminate in favor of new grads (with CS 101 fresh in mind, and also willing to grind yet more artificial test-taking prep), and also have a component of hazing/negging, especially when administered to experienced people. (Asserting an imbalanced power dynamic from the start, and perhaps also exploiting a psych weakness, like "I'm jumping through hoops for this, so this must be worth jumping through hoops for." I'm sure most individual interviewers are of goodwill, and don't intend this, but that doesn't mean it's not present.) Lately, I decline to interview with any company that requires new-grad coding tests for experienced people (especially if they require it even when the person has open source code and community participation that the company can look at). I usually do well, but even then, it leaves a bad taste. Of course, I'm very happy to talk each other's ears off in energetic collegial discussions about engineering problems and technologies, including whiteboard brainstorming of approaches/algorithms, perhaps much like would be a part of everyday work. If anyone ever then interrupted, "Hold on, can you put in all the semicolons, so I can type it in, and make sure you know how to code," you might wonder how that's not already obvious to them, and where they're coming from. This aversion to "coding tests" for experienced people seems to be more acceptable to small companies/startups (or small autonomous units in large orgs), than it is to less-flexible/agile large companies. Recently, after discussing my latest background with a nice FAANG recruiter, we had a good discussion about the company's practice of putting experienced people through what seemed like a new-grad vetting/hazing process, and why that's been a turn-off. They soon sent a followup email, including a quote from an engineer there saying "... I need to know whether you can code in a language," along with attachments on how to prep for their new-grad coding tests. :) For whatever reason the company insists on that process, it seemed like it probably wasn't on track to a professional relationship that I'd want.
- glangdale 8y ago
  I agree with you 100%, but I do have a bit of sympathy with the insistence that they want to verify that everyone can code and not just talk a good line. I made the mistake of hiring someone quite senior through internal transfer once who was utterly and flagrantly unable to code despite the job saying this was a requirement - I probably could have caught this with a simple fizzbuzz, but felt like this would have been too insulting. At at least some of the FAANGs it's also a pretty clear indication of the fact that you're going to get busted way down and work your way up. I was a Principal Engineer at Intel with a successful exit in a highly technical area, but I would be shocked if I wouldn't have to re-earn my stripes at most other companies. Most of the super-smart guys I know who went to Google, for example, got busted way down and quickly earned their way up. So if we're not up to grinding and expect to go back in at a high level, maybe it's kinder to warn us off early. :-)

cubano 8y ago

Without a doubt it's age discrimination...you've hit the nail on the head. Also, God help you if you have followed a non-traditional career path where you decide at points in your life that you wanted a break from it all. I, too, in 1988, fresh out of my BS in CP with no family or life experiences and a strong desire to code day and night would have sailed past the technical side of these often ridiculous interviews for jobs I could literally do in my sleep now. But now, at 53, not only has Father Time fucked with my ability to sight memorize (something I took totally for granted in my younger years) without even trying, I find it almost impossible to hide my frustration at the ridiculousness of the very idea that I would be unable to do the work required of me for the job... "Ok..we really need someone to fix X and Y on this website, and it would be just great if they could reconfigure Z on the server..." "Well, sure...I first saw X and Y-like issues back in the mid-90s in a networked client-server environment and I did X(x) and Y(x) to fix it, and again saw it in the mid-00s under the LAMP-stack and again fixed it doing X'(x) and Y'(x)...and the server issue is something I've seen over and over again during my 30y+ career..I am 100% certain I can solve these relatively simple issues for you guys..." "Oh...yeah ok...so can you whiteboard a bubblesort in Javascript for us? You have 15 minutes." "???" ...and of course I don't get a callback. Do people think I'm lying about all my experience on my resume or what exactly? It's at the level of life and death for me right now, to be honest. I've been shooting out resume after resume for the past month, and nothing good is happening. All I know for certain is...if the real issue was truly about finding someone who can do the job and fix the problems, there is no way in hell I'd still be looking now.

knightofmars 8y ago
They don't want to pay you what they think (the you in their heads think you think) you are worth. That sounds convoluted but I've watched it happen repeatedly. Bill budget IT guy, "What? We need to harden a server? Why do we need to pay this guy over a hundred thousand a year to do that? The internet is full of documentation. Let's hire someone with just enough technical know how to implement it." The reality on the other side is that hiring an experienced engineer has it's risk. I've worked with 20+ years of experience engineers who did it because it was a job and didn't deserve the salary based on their skill set. Companies let this happen, you need to cap positions and then give inflation based raises.
- mooreds 8y ago
  > The reality on the other side is that hiring an experienced engineer has it's risk. Totally agree and have seen it from the interviewee side. I interviewed in March last year as an experienced engineer, and my network was the number one source of interviews and how I found my current job. Don't neglect your network, folks. As you age, it will become ever more important for your next position.
fpalmans 8y ago
It is baffling that someone with over three decades of experience would be expected to go through the same interview process as a recent graduate. When I graduated (over two decades ago, and in Belgium), testing was a regular part of the interviewing process. However, it was understood that this was only done for people with no or very little experience. Later in my career, this fact helped me weed out the jobs which were below my experience level. After stating such and withdrawing candidature for the position, in several cases I was even contacted to come in for a more senior position. The world has certainly changed.
towaway1138 8y ago
I'm about your age, and this is very relatable. My last job hunt took about six months. Among the other high points, I passed the on-site day at Google, passed the hiring committee, and then had an executive reach out to quash my hire. I did end up finding something I'm enjoying. Anyway, just wanted to send you some support. Keep your head up and keep going. You really only need one offer.

neilv 8y ago

By accident or design, the "coding tests" seem to discriminate in favor of new grads (with CS 101 fresh in mind, and also willing to grind yet more artificial test-taking prep), and also have a component of hazing/negging, especially when administered to experienced people. (Asserting an imbalanced power dynamic from the start, and perhaps also exploiting a psych weakness, like "I'm jumping through hoops for this, so this must be worth jumping through hoops for." I'm sure most individual interviewers are of goodwill, and don't intend this, but that doesn't mean it's not present.) Lately, I decline to interview with any company that requires new-grad coding tests for experienced people (especially if they require it even when the person has open source code and community participation that the company can look at). I usually do well, but even then, it leaves a bad taste. Of course, I'm very happy to talk each other's ears off in energetic collegial discussions about engineering problems and technologies, including whiteboard brainstorming of approaches/algorithms, perhaps much like would be a part of everyday work. If anyone ever then interrupted, "Hold on, can you put in all the semicolons, so I can type it in, and make sure you know how to code," you might wonder how that's not already obvious to them, and where they're coming from. This aversion to "coding tests" for experienced people seems to be more acceptable to small companies/startups (or small autonomous units in large orgs), than it is to less-flexible/agile large companies. Recently, after discussing my latest background with a nice FAANG recruiter, we had a good discussion about the company's practice of putting experienced people through what seemed like a new-grad vetting/hazing process, and why that's been a turn-off. They soon sent a followup email, including a quote from an engineer there saying "... I need to know whether you can code in a language," along with attachments on how to prep for their new-grad coding tests. :) For whatever reason the company insists on that process, it seemed like it probably wasn't on track to a professional relationship that I'd want.

glangdale 8y ago
I agree with you 100%, but I do have a bit of sympathy with the insistence that they want to verify that everyone can code and not just talk a good line. I made the mistake of hiring someone quite senior through internal transfer once who was utterly and flagrantly unable to code despite the job saying this was a requirement - I probably could have caught this with a simple fizzbuzz, but felt like this would have been too insulting. At at least some of the FAANGs it's also a pretty clear indication of the fact that you're going to get busted way down and work your way up. I was a Principal Engineer at Intel with a successful exit in a highly technical area, but I would be shocked if I wouldn't have to re-earn my stripes at most other companies. Most of the super-smart guys I know who went to Google, for example, got busted way down and quickly earned their way up. So if we're not up to grinding and expect to go back in at a high level, maybe it's kinder to warn us off early. :-)