7 ms·

It is a perverse effect on the profession as a whole. In the silicon valley I have a fair amount of colleagues that expect of any dev to spend a fair amount of

It is a perverse effect on the profession as a whole. In the silicon valley I have a fair amount of colleagues that expect of any dev to spend a fair amount of their free time grinding on even more dev. No surprise that there is a lack of diversity in the profession as a result.

whatshisface 8y ago
Except for people over 50 who have probably realized there is more to life, why would some demographics be willing to grind less than others? Edit: By "over 50," I mean age demographics in general, which is the main thing that raises your family obligations. The only demographic division that I can think of that would reduce someone's willingness to abandon their personal life would be age.
- sunir 8y ago
  They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Wouldn't that just be another expression of age demographics?
    - jgamman 8y ago
      some people have kids in their 20s (gasp!)
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux. This is like saying: "I have a time-intense hobby that I prefer over working too much for you.".
    - nine_k 8y ago
      Rather: I work for you to finance the really important things in my life. You work to live, not the other way around.
      - wolfgke 8y ago
        > Rather: I work for you to finance the really important things in my life. > You work to live, not the other way around. At least if you work in (academic) research, working to live simply does not work [pun intended]. The things that you work on in this area are the really important things in life.
    - drugme 8y ago
      No, it's called having a life and a sense of proportion. The sooner tech companies learn to embrace and work with this very basic fact, the better.
      - wolfgke 8y ago
        > No, it's called having a life and a sense of proportion. Perhaps I don't grasp some subtle cultural reference of "sense of proportion" since I am no native speaker of English. But I clearly find it much more exciting to work on projects with the chance to change the world than what you call in German derogatorily "Biedermeierei" (for Biedermeier: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid=877725672; https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid... the ending "-rei" in this case denigrate the term "Biedermeier"). The following section in the German Wikipedia explains this much better than the article in the English Wikipedia: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid=184580973#Leben_und_Kultur https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid...
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - chcknsammich 8y ago
        So the sooner they abandon all of their own priorities and instead adopt only yours, the better?
- pcstl 8y ago
  People from some demographics are less likely to have the option to spend all their time grinding. Spending all your time grinding means that you don't need to work toward supporting yourself or others.
- mtberatwork 8y ago
  Well, kids, family obligations and any other non-work related stressors that zap your free time.
- jonahhorowitz 8y ago
  People who have other responsibilities have less time to grind - and those other responsibilities fall more heavily to under-represented folks. Consider things like taking care of children (including siblings), elder parents, and other household work.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  I don't think you need to be over 50 to realize there's more to life. Some demographics are less likely to live to work v. working to live. Some demographics may not have time to juggle interview grinding with other responsibilities (children, existing job(s), etc.)
  - lenocinor 8y ago
    This. I don't have kids and I'm not over 50, but I agree with those people (if they hold this belief); not just philosophically, but also because I want to see a more diverse workforce in software development.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  For a non-age-related one: It's a lot more socially acceptable for members of one sex than it is for members of the other to be too busy with career stuff to spare much time for their families. On a somewhat related note, single parents simply aren't going to have that kind of time.
- msla 8y ago
  > The only demographic division that I can think of that would reduce someone's willingness to abandon their personal life would be age. I can think of a few others tied to national work culture.
- maxkwallace 8y ago
  Humans are social creatures; we can't live on code alone. If you come from an underrepresented demographic or have interests or social preferences outside the mainstream of the profession, it will be harder to fulfill your need for social affiliation by participating in communities like HackerRank in your free time-- because it may be harder to find people who share your values, and that you can identify with on a social level. In other words: the social component of "grinding" is more fulfilling for some demographics than others.
glangdale 8y ago
I'm pretty sure it's age discrimination plain and simple. The only time in my life I would have been in great shape for the standard interview process without a good deal of study was a couple years in early graduate school, where nearly all of this "breadth" stuff was fresh in my mind. The relentless scepticism about people's achievements is to some extent understandable (we've all run into the senior person who can't do fizzbuzz), but it ties neatly in with the idea that every new hire should be 25 at most.
- cubano 8y ago
  Without a doubt it's age discrimination...you've hit the nail on the head. Also, God help you if you have followed a non-traditional career path where you decide at points in your life that you wanted a break from it all. I, too, in 1988, fresh out of my BS in CP with no family or life experiences and a strong desire to code day and night would have sailed past the technical side of these often ridiculous interviews for jobs I could literally do in my sleep now. But now, at 53, not only has Father Time fucked with my ability to sight memorize (something I took totally for granted in my younger years) without even trying, I find it almost impossible to hide my frustration at the ridiculousness of the very idea that I would be unable to do the work required of me for the job... "Ok..we really need someone to fix X and Y on this website, and it would be just great if they could reconfigure Z on the server..." "Well, sure...I first saw X and Y-like issues back in the mid-90s in a networked client-server environment and I did X(x) and Y(x) to fix it, and again saw it in the mid-00s under the LAMP-stack and again fixed it doing X'(x) and Y'(x)...and the server issue is something I've seen over and over again during my 30y+ career..I am 100% certain I can solve these relatively simple issues for you guys..." "Oh...yeah ok...so can you whiteboard a bubblesort in Javascript for us? You have 15 minutes." "???" ...and of course I don't get a callback. Do people think I'm lying about all my experience on my resume or what exactly? It's at the level of life and death for me right now, to be honest. I've been shooting out resume after resume for the past month, and nothing good is happening. All I know for certain is...if the real issue was truly about finding someone who can do the job and fix the problems, there is no way in hell I'd still be looking now.
  - knightofmars 8y ago

whatshisface 8y ago

Except for people over 50 who have probably realized there is more to life, why would some demographics be willing to grind less than others? Edit: By "over 50," I mean age demographics in general, which is the main thing that raises your family obligations. The only demographic division that I can think of that would reduce someone's willingness to abandon their personal life would be age.

sunir 8y ago
They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Wouldn't that just be another expression of age demographics?
  - jgamman 8y ago
    some people have kids in their 20s (gasp!)
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux. This is like saying: "I have a time-intense hobby that I prefer over working too much for you.".
  - nine_k 8y ago
    Rather: I work for you to finance the really important things in my life. You work to live, not the other way around.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > Rather: I work for you to finance the really important things in my life. > You work to live, not the other way around. At least if you work in (academic) research, working to live simply does not work [pun intended]. The things that you work on in this area are the really important things in life.
  - drugme 8y ago
    No, it's called having a life and a sense of proportion. The sooner tech companies learn to embrace and work with this very basic fact, the better.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > No, it's called having a life and a sense of proportion. Perhaps I don't grasp some subtle cultural reference of "sense of proportion" since I am no native speaker of English. But I clearly find it much more exciting to work on projects with the chance to change the world than what you call in German derogatorily "Biedermeierei" (for Biedermeier: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid=877725672; https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid... the ending "-rei" in this case denigrate the term "Biedermeier"). The following section in the German Wikipedia explains this much better than the article in the English Wikipedia: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid=184580973#Leben_und_Kultur https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biedermeier&oldid...
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - chcknsammich 8y ago
      So the sooner they abandon all of their own priorities and instead adopt only yours, the better?
pcstl 8y ago
People from some demographics are less likely to have the option to spend all their time grinding. Spending all your time grinding means that you don't need to work toward supporting yourself or others.
mtberatwork 8y ago
Well, kids, family obligations and any other non-work related stressors that zap your free time.
jonahhorowitz 8y ago
People who have other responsibilities have less time to grind - and those other responsibilities fall more heavily to under-represented folks. Consider things like taking care of children (including siblings), elder parents, and other household work.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bobthepanda 8y ago
I don't think you need to be over 50 to realize there's more to life. Some demographics are less likely to live to work v. working to live. Some demographics may not have time to juggle interview grinding with other responsibilities (children, existing job(s), etc.)
- lenocinor 8y ago
  This. I don't have kids and I'm not over 50, but I agree with those people (if they hold this belief); not just philosophically, but also because I want to see a more diverse workforce in software development.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bunderbunder 8y ago
For a non-age-related one: It's a lot more socially acceptable for members of one sex than it is for members of the other to be too busy with career stuff to spare much time for their families. On a somewhat related note, single parents simply aren't going to have that kind of time.
msla 8y ago
> The only demographic division that I can think of that would reduce someone's willingness to abandon their personal life would be age. I can think of a few others tied to national work culture.
maxkwallace 8y ago
Humans are social creatures; we can't live on code alone. If you come from an underrepresented demographic or have interests or social preferences outside the mainstream of the profession, it will be harder to fulfill your need for social affiliation by participating in communities like HackerRank in your free time-- because it may be harder to find people who share your values, and that you can identify with on a social level. In other words: the social component of "grinding" is more fulfilling for some demographics than others.

glangdale 8y ago

I'm pretty sure it's age discrimination plain and simple. The only time in my life I would have been in great shape for the standard interview process without a good deal of study was a couple years in early graduate school, where nearly all of this "breadth" stuff was fresh in my mind. The relentless scepticism about people's achievements is to some extent understandable (we've all run into the senior person who can't do fizzbuzz), but it ties neatly in with the idea that every new hire should be 25 at most.

cubano 8y ago
Without a doubt it's age discrimination...you've hit the nail on the head. Also, God help you if you have followed a non-traditional career path where you decide at points in your life that you wanted a break from it all. I, too, in 1988, fresh out of my BS in CP with no family or life experiences and a strong desire to code day and night would have sailed past the technical side of these often ridiculous interviews for jobs I could literally do in my sleep now. But now, at 53, not only has Father Time fucked with my ability to sight memorize (something I took totally for granted in my younger years) without even trying, I find it almost impossible to hide my frustration at the ridiculousness of the very idea that I would be unable to do the work required of me for the job... "Ok..we really need someone to fix X and Y on this website, and it would be just great if they could reconfigure Z on the server..." "Well, sure...I first saw X and Y-like issues back in the mid-90s in a networked client-server environment and I did X(x) and Y(x) to fix it, and again saw it in the mid-00s under the LAMP-stack and again fixed it doing X'(x) and Y'(x)...and the server issue is something I've seen over and over again during my 30y+ career..I am 100% certain I can solve these relatively simple issues for you guys..." "Oh...yeah ok...so can you whiteboard a bubblesort in Javascript for us? You have 15 minutes." "???" ...and of course I don't get a callback. Do people think I'm lying about all my experience on my resume or what exactly? It's at the level of life and death for me right now, to be honest. I've been shooting out resume after resume for the past month, and nothing good is happening. All I know for certain is...if the real issue was truly about finding someone who can do the job and fix the problems, there is no way in hell I'd still be looking now.
- knightofmars 8y ago