5 ms·

The tests have become a pure filter, screen out those who dont study heavily prior to taking them. They are uncorrelated from the candidates ability at every da

The tests have become a pure filter, screen out those who dont study heavily prior to taking them. They are uncorrelated from the candidates ability at every day tasks.

chillacy 8y ago
It’s like an industry hazing ritual. How bad do you want it?
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  Hmm. Y'know, that's a great point. I could build a whole conspiracy theory off of that idea: If I'm a FAANG, I'm simply not using my normal interview process to hire for the really interesting jobs. I reserve those ones for people who got the job by virtue of their publication history in the academic literature, or because they built some well-known cool thing, or because they got promoted into the position. Those people get shunted over into the "you didn't come to us, we came to you" interview process. The seats I'm looking to fill with the more public interview process are mostly seats for the grunt coders who work under those people. My ideal candidate for that position isn't some rock star creative genius; it's a workaholic who is resistant to boredom. And what's something a workaholic who's resistant to boredom would be really good at? Grinding away on programming interview questions, of course.
  - geoka9 8y ago
    But they are not supposed to be boring? At least to me they never are, it's just that they are rarely high on my list of important (or fun) things to do on my self-improvement time.
  - isoskeles 8y ago
    > or because they built some well-known cool thing What, like homebrew? :)
    - whatever_dude 8y ago
      > What, like homebrew? :) Context for everybody else: https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en TL;DR: author of Homebrew interviews at Google, but doesn't get hired because he couldn't/wouldn't invert a binary tree on a whiteboard.
      - illumin8 8y ago
        Wow, this is an incredible answer from Max on Quora as well: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-tree/answer/Max-Howell?share=100e0bb6&srid=unBJ9 https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...
  - louisswiss 8y ago
    This isn't a conspiracy theory - it's literally exactly what business schools do... Teach a bunch of people to think in a certain way, speak a certain language and respect authority. Someone who excels at the repetitive mundanity of business school will be a perfect junior marketing manager at BigCo. It's basically taking the way the Army trains new recruits and applying it to white collar jobs.
    - Gibbon1 8y ago
      Old quote I've forgotten the source but it's over 40 years old now. 'Business schools turn out well trained, amoral yet obedient clerks.' Can likely say the same about most CS programs. I know you can say that about engineering.
  - alboy 8y ago
    I wonder if the added friction of changing your place of work caused by this practice is meant to somewhat counterbalance the heavy incentives engineers have to job-hop in the current climate. Kind of makes sense from the point of view of tech employers.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > I wonder if the added friction of changing your place of work caused by this practice is meant to somewhat counterbalance the heavy incentives engineers have to job-hop in the current climate. Kind of makes sense from the point of view of tech employers. I am not sure what to think about this claim: it is the other company that prevents you from working for them by this interview process. The current employer has the incentive that you don't leave. The other (potential) employer rather has the incentive to poach you.
      - alboy 8y ago
        Time spent by a new employee learning the ropes is time wasted from the perspective of an individual employer-actor. On the surface, it sounds similar enough to the iterated prisoner's dilemma so I'm inclined to think that a greedy strategy would do poorly here.
      - mturmon 8y ago
        These same employers (famously) had a cartel that prohibited job hopping before - the Jobs/Schmidt email - so it’s not surprising that the system would trend toward the same equilibrium again.
        wolfgke 8y ago
        > These same employers (famously) had a cartel that prohibited job hopping before - the Jobs/Schmidt email - so it’s not surprising that the system would trend toward the same equilibrium again. This explains this phenomenon plausibly for the FAANG companies. But I think there also exist lots of startups that could easily act as a cartel breaker - to their advantage, since this way they can poach from other companies.
  - meko 8y ago
    Something about your comment instilled a sense of dread and hopelessness within me. I don't know if I can ever be one of those 'built cool things/get published' guys, so I guess that means I'm destined for grunt work. Fk.
- chooseaname 8y ago
  This is exactly what it is. Which Frat house do you want into? Google? FB? Microsoft? Amazon?
oarabbus_ 8y ago
Surely, this must eventually lead to negative results? It's curious because it doesn't seem to be having any negative impact as of now.

The tests have become a pure filter, screen out those who dont study heavily prior to taking them. They are uncorrelated from the candidates ability at every day tasks.

chillacy 8y ago

It’s like an industry hazing ritual. How bad do you want it?

bunderbunder 8y ago
Hmm. Y'know, that's a great point. I could build a whole conspiracy theory off of that idea: If I'm a FAANG, I'm simply not using my normal interview process to hire for the really interesting jobs. I reserve those ones for people who got the job by virtue of their publication history in the academic literature, or because they built some well-known cool thing, or because they got promoted into the position. Those people get shunted over into the "you didn't come to us, we came to you" interview process. The seats I'm looking to fill with the more public interview process are mostly seats for the grunt coders who work under those people. My ideal candidate for that position isn't some rock star creative genius; it's a workaholic who is resistant to boredom. And what's something a workaholic who's resistant to boredom would be really good at? Grinding away on programming interview questions, of course.
- geoka9 8y ago
  But they are not supposed to be boring? At least to me they never are, it's just that they are rarely high on my list of important (or fun) things to do on my self-improvement time.
- isoskeles 8y ago
  > or because they built some well-known cool thing What, like homebrew? :)
  - whatever_dude 8y ago
    > What, like homebrew? :) Context for everybody else: https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en TL;DR: author of Homebrew interviews at Google, but doesn't get hired because he couldn't/wouldn't invert a binary tree on a whiteboard.
    - illumin8 8y ago
      Wow, this is an incredible answer from Max on Quora as well: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-tree/answer/Max-Howell?share=100e0bb6&srid=unBJ9 https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...
- louisswiss 8y ago
  This isn't a conspiracy theory - it's literally exactly what business schools do... Teach a bunch of people to think in a certain way, speak a certain language and respect authority. Someone who excels at the repetitive mundanity of business school will be a perfect junior marketing manager at BigCo. It's basically taking the way the Army trains new recruits and applying it to white collar jobs.
  - Gibbon1 8y ago
    Old quote I've forgotten the source but it's over 40 years old now. 'Business schools turn out well trained, amoral yet obedient clerks.' Can likely say the same about most CS programs. I know you can say that about engineering.
- alboy 8y ago
  I wonder if the added friction of changing your place of work caused by this practice is meant to somewhat counterbalance the heavy incentives engineers have to job-hop in the current climate. Kind of makes sense from the point of view of tech employers.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > I wonder if the added friction of changing your place of work caused by this practice is meant to somewhat counterbalance the heavy incentives engineers have to job-hop in the current climate. Kind of makes sense from the point of view of tech employers. I am not sure what to think about this claim: it is the other company that prevents you from working for them by this interview process. The current employer has the incentive that you don't leave. The other (potential) employer rather has the incentive to poach you.
    - alboy 8y ago
      Time spent by a new employee learning the ropes is time wasted from the perspective of an individual employer-actor. On the surface, it sounds similar enough to the iterated prisoner's dilemma so I'm inclined to think that a greedy strategy would do poorly here.
    - mturmon 8y ago
      These same employers (famously) had a cartel that prohibited job hopping before - the Jobs/Schmidt email - so it’s not surprising that the system would trend toward the same equilibrium again.
      - wolfgke 8y ago
        > These same employers (famously) had a cartel that prohibited job hopping before - the Jobs/Schmidt email - so it’s not surprising that the system would trend toward the same equilibrium again. This explains this phenomenon plausibly for the FAANG companies. But I think there also exist lots of startups that could easily act as a cartel breaker - to their advantage, since this way they can poach from other companies.
- meko 8y ago
  Something about your comment instilled a sense of dread and hopelessness within me. I don't know if I can ever be one of those 'built cool things/get published' guys, so I guess that means I'm destined for grunt work. Fk.
chooseaname 8y ago
This is exactly what it is. Which Frat house do you want into? Google? FB? Microsoft? Amazon?

oarabbus_ 8y ago

Surely, this must eventually lead to negative results? It's curious because it doesn't seem to be having any negative impact as of now.