3 ms·

Calm down. I think your arguments would be more convincing if you spent less time worrying about other people's emotional states and more time making claims th

Calm down. I think your arguments would be more convincing if you spent less time worrying about other people's emotional states and more time making claims that are testable. I note that you haven't disputed my point that claims about what entire societies subconsciously believe are meaningless since you can't prove anything about them. While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El Saadawi). Um, how do you know? It seems like you've never actually read any feminist writings...am I wrong? And it also seems like you've never discussed feminism with any actual living feminists. So how exactly would you know how well this one person on TV represents living breathing feminists? In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In the middle east, it tends to be the first step. I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means.

hasenj 16y ago
We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society. > I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means. When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and live together for years and have children without ever officially getting married. Unless you want to say this only happens in F.R.I.E.N.D.S but not in real life.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society. I didn't claim you made it up; but your presentation doesn't strike me as very accurate. In particular, "It's obvious that marriage is a byproduct of this patriarchal structure" seems wrongheaded. Marriage is a social institution; that means that the structure of marriage reflects the existing power structures in society. Even in the most egalitarian societies, like Sweden, people still get married in great numbers. What's more, many of those who don't get married in fact do get married in all but name: they live together like a married couple indefinitely. Since there are often few benefits to explicit marriage, their choice represents little more than a willingness to forgo a religious ceremony. But it shouldn't surprise us that people in very secular countries decide to avoid big religious ceremonies; that's just common sense. When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and live together for years and have children without ever officially getting married. As I understand it, a great number of unmarried couples in traditional societies make out and have sex; the big difference is that they sneak around when doing so. But if you like, we can pretend that everyone in traditional societies actually strictly observes all their social norms. Moreover, a great many people in western countries get married and stay married for many years. It seems silly to pretend that they don't exist. Your claims would be more persuasive if they were backed up by numbers.

hasenj 16y ago

We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society. > I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means. When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and live together for years and have children without ever officially getting married. Unless you want to say this only happens in F.R.I.E.N.D.S but not in real life.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society. I didn't claim you made it up; but your presentation doesn't strike me as very accurate. In particular, "It's obvious that marriage is a byproduct of this patriarchal structure" seems wrongheaded. Marriage is a social institution; that means that the structure of marriage reflects the existing power structures in society. Even in the most egalitarian societies, like Sweden, people still get married in great numbers. What's more, many of those who don't get married in fact do get married in all but name: they live together like a married couple indefinitely. Since there are often few benefits to explicit marriage, their choice represents little more than a willingness to forgo a religious ceremony. But it shouldn't surprise us that people in very secular countries decide to avoid big religious ceremonies; that's just common sense. When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and live together for years and have children without ever officially getting married. As I understand it, a great number of unmarried couples in traditional societies make out and have sex; the big difference is that they sneak around when doing so. But if you like, we can pretend that everyone in traditional societies actually strictly observes all their social norms. Moreover, a great many people in western countries get married and stay married for many years. It seems silly to pretend that they don't exist. Your claims would be more persuasive if they were backed up by numbers.