4 ms·

> what do we do? Good question. It's a very hard problem, and requires a lot of thought and self-reflection to even begin to solve. Simple university admission

> what do we do? Good question. It's a very hard problem, and requires a lot of thought and self-reflection to even begin to solve. Simple university admission policies will not solve such a broad social issue, as you've noted. > original meritocratic competitive default mode Can you explain this? When/where did this meritocratic system exist?

crowdpleaser 8y ago
Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but modern affirmative action is unprecedented in western civilization for allowing the proliferation of non-maximally competent people to rise. I can also recommend some stuff about the disasters of affirmative action policies in South Africa under black (mis)management
- tptacek 8y ago
  The historical British civil service is your prime example of a superior meritocracy?
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. Limited? Weren't universities merely the place were nobility and rich heirs went to study to get back and lead their inherited empires?
- DanBC 8y ago
  > how the British civil service worked Literally an old boys network where people had to go to the right schools. The civil service is currently working hard to correct years of racist (and sexist, and ableist) hiring practices. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/black-and-asian-civil-servants-facing-discrimination-by-old-boys-network-10140037.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/black-and-asi... "The study, commissioned by the Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood and the Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude, found that ethnic minority staff got lower marks in performance reviews, do not always have equal access to promotion, and don’t feel they work for an organisation that is “open, fair and inclusive”. Even black and Asian officials who make it to the senior ranks felt it was largely because “their face did fit” the mould in other ways – like attending Oxbridge or having middle-class parents."
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Just want to add that historical British society has a pretty amazing, filigreed culture of bigotry that has clearly been perfected through centuries of refinement. I didn't know this until I had a product management job where I had to work directly with a decent-sized direct sales team, and we had an upper-class and a lower-class person on that account team. The British take things beyond skin color, or even the old 1900s notion of whether the Italians are "truly" white --- they've got their hierarchy of parentage calibrated down to the county.

crowdpleaser 8y ago

Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but modern affirmative action is unprecedented in western civilization for allowing the proliferation of non-maximally competent people to rise. I can also recommend some stuff about the disasters of affirmative action policies in South Africa under black (mis)management

tptacek 8y ago
The historical British civil service is your prime example of a superior meritocracy?
coldtea 8y ago
>Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. Limited? Weren't universities merely the place were nobility and rich heirs went to study to get back and lead their inherited empires?
DanBC 8y ago
> how the British civil service worked Literally an old boys network where people had to go to the right schools. The civil service is currently working hard to correct years of racist (and sexist, and ableist) hiring practices. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/black-and-asian-civil-servants-facing-discrimination-by-old-boys-network-10140037.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/black-and-asi... "The study, commissioned by the Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood and the Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude, found that ethnic minority staff got lower marks in performance reviews, do not always have equal access to promotion, and don’t feel they work for an organisation that is “open, fair and inclusive”. Even black and Asian officials who make it to the senior ranks felt it was largely because “their face did fit” the mould in other ways – like attending Oxbridge or having middle-class parents."
- tptacek 8y ago
  Just want to add that historical British society has a pretty amazing, filigreed culture of bigotry that has clearly been perfected through centuries of refinement. I didn't know this until I had a product management job where I had to work directly with a decent-sized direct sales team, and we had an upper-class and a lower-class person on that account team. The British take things beyond skin color, or even the old 1900s notion of whether the Italians are "truly" white --- they've got their hierarchy of parentage calibrated down to the county.