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Ha, I have seen this story before. Zimbabwe my country of birth has screwed the economy so bad that no sane person/company is going to invest there. The result

Ha, I have seen this story before. Zimbabwe my country of birth has screwed the economy so bad that no sane person/company is going to invest there. The result is most of the big players have pulled out and all manner of cottage industries have sprung up. I have watched a woman manually pack popcorn packets in her kitchen, all manner of workshops exist to repair electronics and car parts (I live in South Africa (SA) where the old part is mostly just thrown away). In Zim, people make bricks the old fashioned way with not a single piece of automation. Just shovels, wheelbarrows, brick moulds and mud. Without the big players small players can play a role. Zim has taken it too far though, making business conditions nearly impossible without bribes...

sombremesa 8y ago
India is the same way, no sane person should invest there. They sweetened the pot for the tech sector and then pulled out the rug from under them recently. Wasn't unexpected for anyone who understands Indian politics, but the foreign investors really got screwed. As for locals, greasing palms is the only way to get a business going. Or anything done, really.
- thaveedu 8y ago
  I would say things had changed in the past couple of decades with more public participation in democracy ,It is still not a absolute "land of law" but it is much better now and will outshine china due to democracy
  - vkou 8y ago
    Will it? Do you have any evidence for this, or is this the same wishful thinking that was repeated about China for the last twenty years? Much to the disappointment of neo-liberals, we have discovered that there is no correlation between democracy, and economic development. Compare China and India, Cuba and Haiti, South Korea before, and after Democratic reforms... The form of government is tangential.
    - mmsimanga 8y ago
      I am really not qualified to comment on what is happening internally in India but as an African looking on I see quite a number of positives. Most of our drugs are now from India. Companies like Cipla are quite prominent. India manufactures their own cars( Tata and Mahindra both sold here). In Africa we have a few assembly plants, none of the cars or IP is really ours. India has launched a rocket into space and is planning on going to the moon. As I type this the Zimbabwean vice president is in India for medical treatment[0]. It has become common for medical aids here to send people to India for types of operations. I understand India has some way to go but hey at least you are making some strides. I am not so sure about Africa. The people making bricks and connecting solar panels for lighting are making some progress but nothing large scale such as going into space. Our governments are too inept for that. [0]https://ewn.co.za/2019/02/12/zimbabwe-s-vice-president-receiving-treatment-in-india-official https://ewn.co.za/2019/02/12/zimbabwe-s-vice-president-recei...
      - pm90 8y ago
        I don't think the argument is that India is not doing well in the absolute sense, but whether it could have done far, far better with a non-democratic political system like China. I do think its an important question and one that should be answered in good faith. If we do believe that democracy does not hinder but perhaps help economic development, we should know that. If it does hinder, we should ask: is the price paid worth it?
        jacobush 8y ago
        Isn't India as a country much more diverse than China? I mean I realise China is diverse too but in comparison. Putting a heavy yoke on a diverse country sounds like a recipe for rebellion.
        WillSlim95 8y ago
        India has 20+ languages with atleast one million speakers. China has one common uniting language Mandarin. I speak 3 Indian languages, yet when I moved to a new state for work, none of those languages help me while communicating with locals.
  - billfruit 8y ago
    But Indian democracy is deeply flawed in implementation; the central government hogs most of the power while there is little left for state governments to make a difference, there is too little competition between the states. Moreover through the appointed Governors in states, the Centre influences things in the states as well, which isn't something democratic. In short, the federal structure is broken. The upper house in parliament does not have equal representation for all states, unlike the US Senate. Moreover the central government can dismiss the state government on the flimsiest of grounds. The buerocracy is deeply entrenched in policy making and execution, where it should be largely in the hands of the peoples representatives. The courts are temperamental and inconsistent in interpreting the constitution. The constitution itself is a shaky document, which does not guarantee protections to the citizens with sufficient absoluteness. Many provisions were defined ambiguously.
    - intended 8y ago
      >the central government hogs most of the power while This is not true, as most of the day to day life of normal Indians is affected by their local municipal corporation, then district, state and finally Central. The central government takes up far too much of the mind space of most educated Indians for some reasons, but the poor and middle class who depend far more on local connections consolidate actual power in the local MLA. > The upper house in parliament Is effectively a formality check for certain legislation. IF the same bill is sent back to the Upper house of the Centre they have to pass it. > The courts are temperamental and inconsistent in interpreting the constitution. This is only the supreme court, and that is their role - the larger malaise is the underfunding and unavailability of people to actually be good judges in the lower courts. This is what is one of the corner stones of the problems the country faces: Actual timely justice. This follows up with lack of independence and funding of police - however this will never become a core poll issue because the nation can constantly be distracted by a laundry list of issues which politicians can bring up. IN general, people worry more about Center when they should be focusing on local elections. The Government may pass strong Right to Information laws, but implementation is up to the States - and there you can see exactly the power States have. The over focus on Central elections by citizenry gives state governments the ability to do what they please with impunity.
  - danlugo92 8y ago
    I'm sorry but I think we cannot call a country with no paper money democratic
- Consultant32452 8y ago
  I'm not doubting what you said, but I'm genuinely curious/ignorant. What did Indian gov't do to pull the rug out from foreign tech investors?
  - dmix 8y ago
    Probably sold India as an open modern marketplace where tech companies can thrive, without the typical gov intervention at every step. Then after a ton of foreign businesses got heavily committed/invested there the local political leeches swarmed in and made getting anything done hell.
  - AareyBaba 8y ago
    India has realized that handing over its enormous market to foreign companies not only stifles local business but is a national security issue. Facebook, Google, Visa, Mastercard all have detailed info on Indian nationals, control communication (WhatsApp, WeChat) and can manipulate the retail market (Amazon, Walmart). So they are imposing restrictions similar to the EU. Data has to remain on local servers. They have created an alternative financial card payment network (National Payments Corporation of India) to challenge Visa and Mastercard. The government wants the ability to throttle communication when necessary (see Pulwama terrorist attack )
    - ianai 8y ago
      That sounds more like an evolutionary step than a serious market debasement. Arguably, the actions of the multinational corporations are debasing. Maybe a country controlling the internetworked currency exchanges of their currency should be a 21st century equivalent to minting currency.
      - BigChiefSmokem 8y ago
        Also that last line, "The government wants the ability to throttle communication when necessary (see Pulwama terrorist attack )" is exactly the kind of slippery slope that no democracy should head down.
- victor106 8y ago
  IMHO Very very long term India will do well. In the short to medium term however investing in India is extremely risky. The primary reason is lack of trust and dishonesty at a fundamental level. Law enforcement and judiciary are a joke. I heard it’s not uncommon for court cases to take 20-30 years. The institutions that promote a trustworthy transactions are nearly absent or ineffective.
  - xtracto 8y ago
    Mexican here... I could swear you were describing Mexico in your comment.
  - davchana 8y ago
    Most of the affected people would love 20 years. The saying goes that son will get to hear the verdict in case his father filed.
  - dystopianqt 8y ago
    Yes it takes 20 yeas But mainly in cases that involve various complications and which have been in lower courts for two long. For busuinesses there are many tribunals which genrally resolve matters on fast track basis , and if some case has legal complications there are fast track courts instituted for the same
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- hiyer 8y ago
  If you're referring to the new retail rules, the govt left enough loopholes so it didn't really affect Amazon and Flipkart for too long - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/retail/key-amazon-seller-cloudtail-returns-in-a-new-avatar/articleshow/67877172.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/retai...
- hiyer 8y ago
  In terms of greasing palms, the USA is no different, except that it's legal there. For example, in India it's illegal for a company to pay a political party for favours; so they pay bribes. In USA this is just called lobbying and it's perfectly legal.
  - Throwawayzoink 8y ago
    In India, a politicial party can legally and anonymously give money to a political party.
- dystopianqt 8y ago
  Thats not true anymore . Most of the services are online and with single window clearances . India has time and again taken steps to keep capitalist greed in control.
ejanus 8y ago
Everything you said here is self-evidenced in Nigeria.
pytyper2 8y ago
This is excellent, Capitalism will save your country but it has to be allowed to grow as a child would, but always knocked back in line by the parents. Regarding the bribes, as someone who has studied the early American capitalism roots, you won't like it, but some local good ole boys need to remove some of those corrupt politicians from office, by force if necessary.
zeveb 8y ago
That's the problem with autarky. It sounds really awesome: we make everything we use! The problem is that what it really means is that we're not free to choose the best available, but rather must use the best we make.
Mirioron 8y ago
The problem is that at some point the country becomes developed enough that serious (foreign) investment is necessary to keep growing at a decent pace. Investors will remember any tricks like that and will be much less likely to invest for a long time to come.
- wrong_variable 8y ago
  Only applies to foreign investors that are trying to gain a permanent monopoly. You cannot expect to invest 1 dollar to call dibs to control a growing nation.
gammateam 8y ago
One of my pet peeves about the developing world (and for marginalized people in the developed world) is how long it takes to do things ATMs out of cash, gas stations out of gas, cottage industries providing disjointed subpar services to what already exists internationally This is an ineffecient use of a nation’s potential productivity
- sumedh 8y ago
  > cottage industries providing disjointed subpar services to what already exists internationally Dont know about other developing countries but in India its because lot of us have a different attitude, in Hindi its called "Chalta Hai" ( Let it go ). Build something, cut some corners and call it a day.
  - BigChiefSmokem 8y ago
    In my country of birth, Peru, there is a saying that directly translates to the phrase "being able to" ('ser hábil'). It is a very negative and tongue in cheek way of saying that one can accomplish something no matter what, even if that means doing minor crimes or corruption. Obviously this is a credo for criminals in Peru and is used to make light of any "none serious" crime. It's a toxic attitude to have and a direct detriment to the economy of the country.
  - pcr0 8y ago
    In China, the corner-cutting attitude is called "cha bu duo" (Close enough). Unfortunately this is a problem for Chinese real estate, vaccines, food, etc.
  - aliswe 8y ago
    Wouldnt chalta hai be more like "well it works"?

sombremesa 8y ago

India is the same way, no sane person should invest there. They sweetened the pot for the tech sector and then pulled out the rug from under them recently. Wasn't unexpected for anyone who understands Indian politics, but the foreign investors really got screwed. As for locals, greasing palms is the only way to get a business going. Or anything done, really.

thaveedu 8y ago
I would say things had changed in the past couple of decades with more public participation in democracy ,It is still not a absolute "land of law" but it is much better now and will outshine china due to democracy
- vkou 8y ago
  Will it? Do you have any evidence for this, or is this the same wishful thinking that was repeated about China for the last twenty years? Much to the disappointment of neo-liberals, we have discovered that there is no correlation between democracy, and economic development. Compare China and India, Cuba and Haiti, South Korea before, and after Democratic reforms... The form of government is tangential.
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    I am really not qualified to comment on what is happening internally in India but as an African looking on I see quite a number of positives. Most of our drugs are now from India. Companies like Cipla are quite prominent. India manufactures their own cars( Tata and Mahindra both sold here). In Africa we have a few assembly plants, none of the cars or IP is really ours. India has launched a rocket into space and is planning on going to the moon. As I type this the Zimbabwean vice president is in India for medical treatment[0]. It has become common for medical aids here to send people to India for types of operations. I understand India has some way to go but hey at least you are making some strides. I am not so sure about Africa. The people making bricks and connecting solar panels for lighting are making some progress but nothing large scale such as going into space. Our governments are too inept for that. [0]https://ewn.co.za/2019/02/12/zimbabwe-s-vice-president-receiving-treatment-in-india-official https://ewn.co.za/2019/02/12/zimbabwe-s-vice-president-recei...
    - pm90 8y ago
      I don't think the argument is that India is not doing well in the absolute sense, but whether it could have done far, far better with a non-democratic political system like China. I do think its an important question and one that should be answered in good faith. If we do believe that democracy does not hinder but perhaps help economic development, we should know that. If it does hinder, we should ask: is the price paid worth it?
      - jacobush 8y ago
        Isn't India as a country much more diverse than China? I mean I realise China is diverse too but in comparison. Putting a heavy yoke on a diverse country sounds like a recipe for rebellion.
        WillSlim95 8y ago
        India has 20+ languages with atleast one million speakers. China has one common uniting language Mandarin. I speak 3 Indian languages, yet when I moved to a new state for work, none of those languages help me while communicating with locals.
- billfruit 8y ago
  But Indian democracy is deeply flawed in implementation; the central government hogs most of the power while there is little left for state governments to make a difference, there is too little competition between the states. Moreover through the appointed Governors in states, the Centre influences things in the states as well, which isn't something democratic. In short, the federal structure is broken. The upper house in parliament does not have equal representation for all states, unlike the US Senate. Moreover the central government can dismiss the state government on the flimsiest of grounds. The buerocracy is deeply entrenched in policy making and execution, where it should be largely in the hands of the peoples representatives. The courts are temperamental and inconsistent in interpreting the constitution. The constitution itself is a shaky document, which does not guarantee protections to the citizens with sufficient absoluteness. Many provisions were defined ambiguously.
  - intended 8y ago
    >the central government hogs most of the power while This is not true, as most of the day to day life of normal Indians is affected by their local municipal corporation, then district, state and finally Central. The central government takes up far too much of the mind space of most educated Indians for some reasons, but the poor and middle class who depend far more on local connections consolidate actual power in the local MLA. > The upper house in parliament Is effectively a formality check for certain legislation. IF the same bill is sent back to the Upper house of the Centre they have to pass it. > The courts are temperamental and inconsistent in interpreting the constitution. This is only the supreme court, and that is their role - the larger malaise is the underfunding and unavailability of people to actually be good judges in the lower courts. This is what is one of the corner stones of the problems the country faces: Actual timely justice. This follows up with lack of independence and funding of police - however this will never become a core poll issue because the nation can constantly be distracted by a laundry list of issues which politicians can bring up. IN general, people worry more about Center when they should be focusing on local elections. The Government may pass strong Right to Information laws, but implementation is up to the States - and there you can see exactly the power States have. The over focus on Central elections by citizenry gives state governments the ability to do what they please with impunity.
- danlugo92 8y ago
  I'm sorry but I think we cannot call a country with no paper money democratic
Consultant32452 8y ago
I'm not doubting what you said, but I'm genuinely curious/ignorant. What did Indian gov't do to pull the rug out from foreign tech investors?
- dmix 8y ago
  Probably sold India as an open modern marketplace where tech companies can thrive, without the typical gov intervention at every step. Then after a ton of foreign businesses got heavily committed/invested there the local political leeches swarmed in and made getting anything done hell.
- AareyBaba 8y ago
  India has realized that handing over its enormous market to foreign companies not only stifles local business but is a national security issue. Facebook, Google, Visa, Mastercard all have detailed info on Indian nationals, control communication (WhatsApp, WeChat) and can manipulate the retail market (Amazon, Walmart). So they are imposing restrictions similar to the EU. Data has to remain on local servers. They have created an alternative financial card payment network (National Payments Corporation of India) to challenge Visa and Mastercard. The government wants the ability to throttle communication when necessary (see Pulwama terrorist attack )
  - ianai 8y ago
    That sounds more like an evolutionary step than a serious market debasement. Arguably, the actions of the multinational corporations are debasing. Maybe a country controlling the internetworked currency exchanges of their currency should be a 21st century equivalent to minting currency.
    - BigChiefSmokem 8y ago
      Also that last line, "The government wants the ability to throttle communication when necessary (see Pulwama terrorist attack )" is exactly the kind of slippery slope that no democracy should head down.
victor106 8y ago
IMHO Very very long term India will do well. In the short to medium term however investing in India is extremely risky. The primary reason is lack of trust and dishonesty at a fundamental level. Law enforcement and judiciary are a joke. I heard it’s not uncommon for court cases to take 20-30 years. The institutions that promote a trustworthy transactions are nearly absent or ineffective.
- xtracto 8y ago
  Mexican here... I could swear you were describing Mexico in your comment.
- davchana 8y ago
  Most of the affected people would love 20 years. The saying goes that son will get to hear the verdict in case his father filed.
- dystopianqt 8y ago
  Yes it takes 20 yeas But mainly in cases that involve various complications and which have been in lower courts for two long. For busuinesses there are many tribunals which genrally resolve matters on fast track basis , and if some case has legal complications there are fast track courts instituted for the same
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hiyer 8y ago
If you're referring to the new retail rules, the govt left enough loopholes so it didn't really affect Amazon and Flipkart for too long - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/retail/key-amazon-seller-cloudtail-returns-in-a-new-avatar/articleshow/67877172.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/retai...
hiyer 8y ago
In terms of greasing palms, the USA is no different, except that it's legal there. For example, in India it's illegal for a company to pay a political party for favours; so they pay bribes. In USA this is just called lobbying and it's perfectly legal.
- Throwawayzoink 8y ago
  In India, a politicial party can legally and anonymously give money to a political party.
dystopianqt 8y ago
Thats not true anymore . Most of the services are online and with single window clearances . India has time and again taken steps to keep capitalist greed in control.

ejanus 8y ago

Everything you said here is self-evidenced in Nigeria.

pytyper2 8y ago

This is excellent, Capitalism will save your country but it has to be allowed to grow as a child would, but always knocked back in line by the parents. Regarding the bribes, as someone who has studied the early American capitalism roots, you won't like it, but some local good ole boys need to remove some of those corrupt politicians from office, by force if necessary.

zeveb 8y ago

That's the problem with autarky. It sounds really awesome: we make everything we use! The problem is that what it really means is that we're not free to choose the best available, but rather must use the best we make.

Mirioron 8y ago

The problem is that at some point the country becomes developed enough that serious (foreign) investment is necessary to keep growing at a decent pace. Investors will remember any tricks like that and will be much less likely to invest for a long time to come.

wrong_variable 8y ago
Only applies to foreign investors that are trying to gain a permanent monopoly. You cannot expect to invest 1 dollar to call dibs to control a growing nation.

gammateam 8y ago

One of my pet peeves about the developing world (and for marginalized people in the developed world) is how long it takes to do things ATMs out of cash, gas stations out of gas, cottage industries providing disjointed subpar services to what already exists internationally This is an ineffecient use of a nation’s potential productivity

sumedh 8y ago
> cottage industries providing disjointed subpar services to what already exists internationally Dont know about other developing countries but in India its because lot of us have a different attitude, in Hindi its called "Chalta Hai" ( Let it go ). Build something, cut some corners and call it a day.
- BigChiefSmokem 8y ago
  In my country of birth, Peru, there is a saying that directly translates to the phrase "being able to" ('ser hábil'). It is a very negative and tongue in cheek way of saying that one can accomplish something no matter what, even if that means doing minor crimes or corruption. Obviously this is a credo for criminals in Peru and is used to make light of any "none serious" crime. It's a toxic attitude to have and a direct detriment to the economy of the country.
- pcr0 8y ago
  In China, the corner-cutting attitude is called "cha bu duo" (Close enough). Unfortunately this is a problem for Chinese real estate, vaccines, food, etc.
- aliswe 8y ago
  Wouldnt chalta hai be more like "well it works"?