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I think at the heart of the feminist movement lies a belief that marriage is a tool devised by society to control women. Why do you think that? As far as I kno

I think at the heart of the feminist movement lies a belief that marriage is a tool devised by society to control women. Why do you think that? As far as I know, the feminist movement is a part of a greater civil rights movement focused on equal political, economic, and social rights regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, and yes, in the particular case of feminism, gender. What makes you say that feminism is mainly focused on destroying marriage? On a separate anecdotal note, I grew up in the former Soviet Union where religion was largely absent and yet marriage was very strong.

hasenj 16y ago
Ah, I didn't say they're set on destroying marriage. For all I could tell, they couldn't care less. But from what I understand, they have this notion of the "patriarchal society" where the males control everything, including language, and gender roles, and everything else. It's obvious that marriage is a byproduct of this patriarchal structure. I've heard a certain feminist (who happens to be married) say on TV that marriage is an old and failed system that we should get rid of. I think this is not too inconsistent with what the western culture(s) subconsciously believe. The point of marriage is the creation of families in a social structure where pre-martial sex is strongly frowned upon, and where the social network is built mostly on top the "family" unit. In the west, pre-martial sex is rather encouraged, and the social structure is not built on top of the "family" unit.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  I've heard a certain feminist (who happens to be married) say on TV that marriage is an old and failed system that we should get rid of. There are over 6 billion people on Earth. Many of those people are just insane. And television shows have an incentive to bring on the real nuts in order to keep things exciting. As such, the fact that you heard one representative from group X go on TV and say something nutty doesn't allow you to make any inferences about what the median person in group X actually believes. I think this is not too inconsistent with what the western culture(s) subconsciously believe. Strange. If western culture "subconsciously believes that marriage is a failed system that should be disposed of", then I don't see why marriage is (1) held in high esteem and (2) heavily subsidized. I mean, when I got married, everyone I knew was delighted and no one told me "this is a terrible idea -- marriage is a failed system". Why would the government give me money once I got married if there was a social consensus that marriage is a failed system? The problem with asserting things about an entire society's "subconscious beliefs" is that your assertions are impossible to refute. Which suggests that these assertions are meaningless garbage.
  - hasenj 16y ago
    Calm down. I'm not trying to attack anyone, just stating what I'm observing. I'm not saying anything about whether or not it's morally right or wrong. While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El Saadawi). In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In the middle east, it tends to be the first step. This already suggests that marriage is much less important than it used to be, and I can only see it getting less and less important as time goes on.
    - MichaelSalib 16y ago
      Calm down. I think your arguments would be more convincing if you spent less time worrying about other people's emotional states and more time making claims that are testable. I note that you haven't disputed my point that claims about what entire societies subconsciously believe are meaningless since you can't prove anything about them. While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El Saadawi). Um, how do you know? It seems like you've never actually read any feminist writings...am I wrong? And it also seems like you've never discussed feminism with any actual living feminists. So how exactly would you know how well this one person on TV represents living breathing feminists? In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In the middle east, it tends to be the first step. I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means.
      - hasenj 16y ago
        We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society. > I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means. When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and live together for years and have children without ever officially getting married. Unless you want to say this only happens in F.R.I.E.N.D.S but not in real life.

hasenj 16y ago

Ah, I didn't say they're set on destroying marriage. For all I could tell, they couldn't care less. But from what I understand, they have this notion of the "patriarchal society" where the males control everything, including language, and gender roles, and everything else. It's obvious that marriage is a byproduct of this patriarchal structure. I've heard a certain feminist (who happens to be married) say on TV that marriage is an old and failed system that we should get rid of. I think this is not too inconsistent with what the western culture(s) subconsciously believe. The point of marriage is the creation of families in a social structure where pre-martial sex is strongly frowned upon, and where the social network is built mostly on top the "family" unit. In the west, pre-martial sex is rather encouraged, and the social structure is not built on top of the "family" unit.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
I've heard a certain feminist (who happens to be married) say on TV that marriage is an old and failed system that we should get rid of. There are over 6 billion people on Earth. Many of those people are just insane. And television shows have an incentive to bring on the real nuts in order to keep things exciting. As such, the fact that you heard one representative from group X go on TV and say something nutty doesn't allow you to make any inferences about what the median person in group X actually believes. I think this is not too inconsistent with what the western culture(s) subconsciously believe. Strange. If western culture "subconsciously believes that marriage is a failed system that should be disposed of", then I don't see why marriage is (1) held in high esteem and (2) heavily subsidized. I mean, when I got married, everyone I knew was delighted and no one told me "this is a terrible idea -- marriage is a failed system". Why would the government give me money once I got married if there was a social consensus that marriage is a failed system? The problem with asserting things about an entire society's "subconscious beliefs" is that your assertions are impossible to refute. Which suggests that these assertions are meaningless garbage.
- hasenj 16y ago
  Calm down. I'm not trying to attack anyone, just stating what I'm observing. I'm not saying anything about whether or not it's morally right or wrong. While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El Saadawi). In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In the middle east, it tends to be the first step. This already suggests that marriage is much less important than it used to be, and I can only see it getting less and less important as time goes on.
  - MichaelSalib 16y ago
    Calm down. I think your arguments would be more convincing if you spent less time worrying about other people's emotional states and more time making claims that are testable. I note that you haven't disputed my point that claims about what entire societies subconsciously believe are meaningless since you can't prove anything about them. While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El Saadawi). Um, how do you know? It seems like you've never actually read any feminist writings...am I wrong? And it also seems like you've never discussed feminism with any actual living feminists. So how exactly would you know how well this one person on TV represents living breathing feminists? In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In the middle east, it tends to be the first step. I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means.
    - hasenj 16y ago
      We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society. > I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means. When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and live together for years and have children without ever officially getting married. Unless you want to say this only happens in F.R.I.E.N.D.S but not in real life.