6 ms·

I've been on a computer pretty much 12-16 hours a day for 30 years now. Dvorak only makes sense to me if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for

I've been on a computer pretty much 12-16 hours a day for 30 years now. Dvorak only makes sense to me if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. On my own I have four different machines/OS and I frequently have to type at other peoples'. I spent 10 years in Dvorak, Colemak and a variety of modified Colemak layouts before settling back on qwerty. I never noticed much difference in typing speed between it and dvorak (~104wpm) and I am still without RSI. Using vim with dvorak is a real pain.

maskros 8y ago
"Using vim with dvorak is a real pain." That is not my experience, at all. Then again, I don't use Vim like notepad with "hjkl" instead of arrow keys... All the powerful movement and editing commands (b, w, $, 0, /foo, *, #, %, cw, dd, ^], ^t, cib, ., etc.) work just as well with dvorak as with qwerty.
- dietr1ch 8y ago
  There's people that remap those on vim, but I found that doing so may force you to start remapping all the keys on every vim-inspired application and plug in. It happens that "J" and "K" are next to each other and easily reachable, and that "H" and "L" still are 2 columns away and "h" is on the left, so using them in their new position it's not that bad.
- creese 8y ago
  When combined with Colemak, Vim's default keybindings are particularly bad. On Colemak, HJKL all map to the same finger.
audunw 8y ago
> if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. The keyboard itself is irrelevant. I'd recommend getting a keyboard without labels to free yourself from the idea that you need to look at them. All of the time? I don't get this. There's no problem switching between Dvorak and Qwerty if you do it regularly. It's like switching between bicycling and snowboarding.. you just switch the context for your muscle memory. Although you'll probably have a bit higher error rate on the layout you use less
- theandrewbailey 8y ago
  I've been using blank keyboards[0] at home and work for several years now. Whenever someone just stares at it for a moment, I ask "What? You can't type?" I totally don't get the trend of backlit gaming keyboards. Desktop keyboards aren't supposed to be looked at, period. [0] Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate
  - slededit 8y ago
    You can touch type the F-keys too?
- busterarm 8y ago
  I'm a touch typist. I do not look at the keys. The issue is managing the keyboard switch on every single computer and OS that I use. We're talking: Linux workstation at work, company-issued MBP for remote work, my personal OpenBSD laptop, my Windows gaming desktop. The gaming desktop has its own host of issues and might as well be qwerty. And then I'm having to do things on other peoples' workstations constantly (and others mine) and I've only encountered two people in my whole career who use Dvorak. My point is that typing speed is roughly equivalent and it doesn't reap any benefits with all of the time spend managing workstations and context switching between layouts.
4thaccount 8y ago
Or you can get RSI in just a few years (right out of college) using QWERTY. I switched to an ergonomic keyboard and it has helped a lot, but it flares up on occasion....I've considered Dvorak on several occasions, but doubt I have the time to be that inefficient for a few weeks. I also use Vim when testing some of our software and would hate to have to relearn all the things I only know my muscle memory now.
- ustamills 8y ago
  I can touch type both qwerty and Dvorak and have been for almost 30 years. Dvorak definitely saved me from RSI. I was genuinely losing my hand use due to a data entry job in college. As a developer, I would not have been able to continue, successfully, without Dvorak. I have never been that much faster on Dvorak because I keep stopping to think. Keyboard can't help that. Beyond all that, Dvorak just feels good to use. Although phones & other qwerty biased situations are a pain, I still think Dvorak was worth it.
  - WorldMaker 8y ago
    Similarly, I credit a switch to Colemak in grad school with narrowly avoiding an RSI that year. I couldn't touch type QWERTY, and realized I needed to relearn touch typing from first principles and wasn't going to go through all that effort just to relearn QWERTY. > Beyond all that, Dvorak just feels good to use. I mention this a lot. Even if the extra efficiencies touted by Dvorak and Colemak are marginal at best (and the evidence goes both ways), the interesting part is that they still feel better / more "fun" to type. There are some words with interesting rolls in Colemak that are just "fun", as silly of a thing to be excited about as that can be. For instance, "start" in Colemak is two left-handed inward rolls on the homerow, like idly tapping your fingers against a desk. A big thing that convinced me about Colemak in grad school, and help push me to make the switch, was that the typing tutor had none of that asdf;jkjk nonsense of touch typing in QWERTY, from the first four letters on the home row in the "strong positions", S T N E you are spelling full words and never typing nonsense (tents, Tennessee, …). Touch typing training is never "fun", but it is much easier to force yourself to relearn when it answers "when would I ever use this particular exercise" immediately out of the gate.

maskros 8y ago

"Using vim with dvorak is a real pain." That is not my experience, at all. Then again, I don't use Vim like notepad with "hjkl" instead of arrow keys... All the powerful movement and editing commands (b, w, $, 0, /foo, *, #, %, cw, dd, ^], ^t, cib, ., etc.) work just as well with dvorak as with qwerty.

dietr1ch 8y ago
There's people that remap those on vim, but I found that doing so may force you to start remapping all the keys on every vim-inspired application and plug in. It happens that "J" and "K" are next to each other and easily reachable, and that "H" and "L" still are 2 columns away and "h" is on the left, so using them in their new position it's not that bad.
creese 8y ago
When combined with Colemak, Vim's default keybindings are particularly bad. On Colemak, HJKL all map to the same finger.

audunw 8y ago

> if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. The keyboard itself is irrelevant. I'd recommend getting a keyboard without labels to free yourself from the idea that you need to look at them. All of the time? I don't get this. There's no problem switching between Dvorak and Qwerty if you do it regularly. It's like switching between bicycling and snowboarding.. you just switch the context for your muscle memory. Although you'll probably have a bit higher error rate on the layout you use less

theandrewbailey 8y ago
I've been using blank keyboards[0] at home and work for several years now. Whenever someone just stares at it for a moment, I ask "What? You can't type?" I totally don't get the trend of backlit gaming keyboards. Desktop keyboards aren't supposed to be looked at, period. [0] Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate
- slededit 8y ago
  You can touch type the F-keys too?
busterarm 8y ago
I'm a touch typist. I do not look at the keys. The issue is managing the keyboard switch on every single computer and OS that I use. We're talking: Linux workstation at work, company-issued MBP for remote work, my personal OpenBSD laptop, my Windows gaming desktop. The gaming desktop has its own host of issues and might as well be qwerty. And then I'm having to do things on other peoples' workstations constantly (and others mine) and I've only encountered two people in my whole career who use Dvorak. My point is that typing speed is roughly equivalent and it doesn't reap any benefits with all of the time spend managing workstations and context switching between layouts.

4thaccount 8y ago

Or you can get RSI in just a few years (right out of college) using QWERTY. I switched to an ergonomic keyboard and it has helped a lot, but it flares up on occasion....I've considered Dvorak on several occasions, but doubt I have the time to be that inefficient for a few weeks. I also use Vim when testing some of our software and would hate to have to relearn all the things I only know my muscle memory now.

ustamills 8y ago
I can touch type both qwerty and Dvorak and have been for almost 30 years. Dvorak definitely saved me from RSI. I was genuinely losing my hand use due to a data entry job in college. As a developer, I would not have been able to continue, successfully, without Dvorak. I have never been that much faster on Dvorak because I keep stopping to think. Keyboard can't help that. Beyond all that, Dvorak just feels good to use. Although phones & other qwerty biased situations are a pain, I still think Dvorak was worth it.
- WorldMaker 8y ago
  Similarly, I credit a switch to Colemak in grad school with narrowly avoiding an RSI that year. I couldn't touch type QWERTY, and realized I needed to relearn touch typing from first principles and wasn't going to go through all that effort just to relearn QWERTY. > Beyond all that, Dvorak just feels good to use. I mention this a lot. Even if the extra efficiencies touted by Dvorak and Colemak are marginal at best (and the evidence goes both ways), the interesting part is that they still feel better / more "fun" to type. There are some words with interesting rolls in Colemak that are just "fun", as silly of a thing to be excited about as that can be. For instance, "start" in Colemak is two left-handed inward rolls on the homerow, like idly tapping your fingers against a desk. A big thing that convinced me about Colemak in grad school, and help push me to make the switch, was that the typing tutor had none of that asdf;jkjk nonsense of touch typing in QWERTY, from the first four letters on the home row in the "strong positions", S T N E you are spelling full words and never typing nonsense (tents, Tennessee, …). Touch typing training is never "fun", but it is much easier to force yourself to relearn when it answers "when would I ever use this particular exercise" immediately out of the gate.