4 ms·

I'm excited to hear that they are making a new TUN infrastructure for Windows. After the website redesign, OpenVPN doesn't even ship builds of Windows-TAP anymo

I'm excited to hear that they are making a new TUN infrastructure for Windows. After the website redesign, OpenVPN doesn't even ship builds of Windows-TAP anymore and it is quite a pain to build, plus you have to sign it yourself. One of my current projects will need a TUN and we've decided to make it Linux only because its just too much work to support Windows. There is a new VPN provider API only accessible to UWP apps, but there is literally zero documentation or examples beyond the auto generated .NET API docs.

iknowstuff 8y ago
> There is a new VPN provider API only accessible to UWP apps, but there is literally zero documentation or examples beyond the auto generated .NET API docs. I thought it was just me! Is this the reason why WireGuard decided not to use those APIs after all?
miles 8y ago
> OpenVPN doesn't even ship builds of Windows-TAP anymore WireGuard's creator discussing OpenVPN's TUN/TAP driver and a possible alternative back in 2017[0]: The OpenVPN Windows kernel TUN/TAP driver is really super scary. That alone has a larger code base than all of WireGuard... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15597883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15597883
pizza 8y ago
If I want to use WireGuard on Windows, what's my best option, currently? TunSafe? Looks like there's some development on Windows going on atm but no releases afaik https://git.zx2c4.com/wireguard-windows https://git.zx2c4.com/wireguard-windows
- mmozeiko 8y ago
  I use TunSafe for something like a year. It is great. Everything is pretty seamless. And with it I get better speeds than OpenVPN when connecting to Linux machine across Atlantic ocean.
  - Hello71 8y ago
    as long as you're not worried about them selling out and it suddenly installing adware, spyware, and cryptocurrency miners on your computer...
    - gsich 8y ago
      Why?
zx2c4 8y ago
Indeed we looked in to UWP and got something sort of working there, but it's super new, undocumented, and has a lot of limitations that wouldn't have worked well for WireGuard, like roaming. Actually when we asked Microsoft for documentation and improvements, they asked us to sign an NDA, which obviously doesn't fly for an open source project. Plus, we'd then leave Windows 7 users in the cold, which AFAIK, is still an important target for enterprise.
- hug 8y ago
  Not speaking to the NDA issue, which is gross, but just to the Windows 7 users issue: Windows 7 is currently under extended support (i.e.: critical security updates only) and that extended support ends as of January 2020. In other words: Standard end users have 11 months to migrate away from Windows 7 entirely. There is a horrifically expensive option to purchase even further extended support from Microsoft, which a few large companies may do.
  - miles 8y ago
    > There is a horrifically expensive option to purchase even further extended support from Microsoft, which a few large companies may do. It's actually not that expensive[0]: "Year one (January 2020 to 2021), that add-on will cost $25 per device for that set of users. Year two (January 2021 to 2022) that price goes up to $50 per device. And Year three (January 2022 to January 2023) it goes up to $100 per device." And while this requires a volume license agreement[1]: "Windows 7 ESUs will be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers in Volume Licensing, with a discount to customers with Windows software assurance, Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Education subscriptions." it is not difficult or expensive to acquire[2]: "While five licenses are required to enter into a new VL agreement, they need not all be for LTSC. According to a rep I spoke with at a Microsoft Partner, this combination would work as an upgrade from a Windows OEM license (i.e., it would allow a user who bought a PC with Windows 10 preinstalled to run Windows 10 LTSC instead): 1x Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 Single Upgrade Open Business $269.04 & 4x Microsoft Identity Manager - 1 User CAL - Open Business $7.81" [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-will-staying-patched-on-windows-7-cost-you-heres-the-price-list/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-will-staying-patched-... [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2018/09/06/helping-customers-shift-to-a-modern-desktop/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2018/09/0... [2] https://tinyapps.org/blog/windows/201811300700_windows_10_ltsc.html https://tinyapps.org/blog/windows/201811300700_windows_10_lt...

iknowstuff 8y ago

> There is a new VPN provider API only accessible to UWP apps, but there is literally zero documentation or examples beyond the auto generated .NET API docs. I thought it was just me! Is this the reason why WireGuard decided not to use those APIs after all?

miles 8y ago

> OpenVPN doesn't even ship builds of Windows-TAP anymore WireGuard's creator discussing OpenVPN's TUN/TAP driver and a possible alternative back in 2017[0]: The OpenVPN Windows kernel TUN/TAP driver is really super scary. That alone has a larger code base than all of WireGuard... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15597883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15597883

pizza 8y ago

If I want to use WireGuard on Windows, what's my best option, currently? TunSafe? Looks like there's some development on Windows going on atm but no releases afaik https://git.zx2c4.com/wireguard-windows https://git.zx2c4.com/wireguard-windows

mmozeiko 8y ago
I use TunSafe for something like a year. It is great. Everything is pretty seamless. And with it I get better speeds than OpenVPN when connecting to Linux machine across Atlantic ocean.
- Hello71 8y ago
  as long as you're not worried about them selling out and it suddenly installing adware, spyware, and cryptocurrency miners on your computer...
  - gsich 8y ago
    Why?

zx2c4 8y ago

Indeed we looked in to UWP and got something sort of working there, but it's super new, undocumented, and has a lot of limitations that wouldn't have worked well for WireGuard, like roaming. Actually when we asked Microsoft for documentation and improvements, they asked us to sign an NDA, which obviously doesn't fly for an open source project. Plus, we'd then leave Windows 7 users in the cold, which AFAIK, is still an important target for enterprise.

hug 8y ago
Not speaking to the NDA issue, which is gross, but just to the Windows 7 users issue: Windows 7 is currently under extended support (i.e.: critical security updates only) and that extended support ends as of January 2020. In other words: Standard end users have 11 months to migrate away from Windows 7 entirely. There is a horrifically expensive option to purchase even further extended support from Microsoft, which a few large companies may do.
- miles 8y ago
  > There is a horrifically expensive option to purchase even further extended support from Microsoft, which a few large companies may do. It's actually not that expensive[0]: "Year one (January 2020 to 2021), that add-on will cost $25 per device for that set of users. Year two (January 2021 to 2022) that price goes up to $50 per device. And Year three (January 2022 to January 2023) it goes up to $100 per device." And while this requires a volume license agreement[1]: "Windows 7 ESUs will be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers in Volume Licensing, with a discount to customers with Windows software assurance, Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Education subscriptions." it is not difficult or expensive to acquire[2]: "While five licenses are required to enter into a new VL agreement, they need not all be for LTSC. According to a rep I spoke with at a Microsoft Partner, this combination would work as an upgrade from a Windows OEM license (i.e., it would allow a user who bought a PC with Windows 10 preinstalled to run Windows 10 LTSC instead): 1x Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 Single Upgrade Open Business $269.04 & 4x Microsoft Identity Manager - 1 User CAL - Open Business $7.81" [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-will-staying-patched-on-windows-7-cost-you-heres-the-price-list/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-will-staying-patched-... [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2018/09/06/helping-customers-shift-to-a-modern-desktop/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2018/09/0... [2] https://tinyapps.org/blog/windows/201811300700_windows_10_ltsc.html https://tinyapps.org/blog/windows/201811300700_windows_10_lt...