6 ms·

I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school, and I highly recommend it. I agree that switching is a pain in the ass.

I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school, and I highly recommend it. I agree that switching is a pain in the ass. It will make you essentially unable to type for about 2-4 weeks. Ctrl-C/V/X is a valid concern. I fixed it by mapping mouse buttons to copy/paste, and also getting an Advantage2 Kinesis into which I've programming custom keybinding for Undo/Redo/Copy/Cut/Paste. I can still touch type qwerty and often do at work on co-workers' keyboards. I'm pretty slow though, about 40wpm (100 on dvorak), and I usually have to look at the keyboard. I also use qwerty on my phone - I tried dvorak and also found it to be a hindrance there. That makes sense, since dvorak is designed specifically for ten-fingered typing. The primary benefit that the author of this post completely overlooked is comfort. It just feels... easy and comfortable, in a way that Qwerty doesn't even come close to. Whenever I am forced to type Qwerty I feel like I am doing finger calisthenics. It's tiring. My wrists never hurt after full days of typing, and I'm hopeful that the reduced motion and strain will help me avoid carpal tunnel or other hand/finger issues. I plan to spend my entire career and much of my free time in front of a computer. Why on earth would I subject myself to anything less than the best interface system possible? That would be like a professional chef using the $20 knife block from the grocery store, or your doctor using WebMD to try and diagnose you.

lsd5you 8y ago
Been using dvorak for perhaps 10 years myself. Ctrx-c/v/x, well they're not next to each other anymore (and kind need 2 hands to use)! I recommend using this, in my mind a way bigger improvement than just moving to dvorak itself. It's like having vim navigation everywhere, but better. https://manybutfinite.com/post/home-row-computing/ Pretty sure my WPM is something like < 20 wpm in Querty (70 in dvorak). I look like a complete beginner whenever I'm on someone elses machine. Not really sure how others keep the dual fluency.
- dnautics 8y ago
  Perfect dual fluency took me about ten years. I still sometimes get confused if I am using a keyboard that feels like one of my own. And then there was the time I dated someone who, unbeknownst to me, used Dvorak. "Hey, what the hell is wrong with your keyboard?"
Alex3917 8y ago
> I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school Same. I type on my laptop pretty much all day, and am not even close to having an RSI. To me using QWERTY just seems irresponsible, like driving without a seatbelt or something. If you don't use a computer that much then I guess that's one thing, but if you actually use one on a daily basis for your job and are using QWERTY then that just seems like a huge and unnecessary risk for both yourself and your employer/startup.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Everyone here seems to be saying that switching immediately eliminated their pain, so what's the risk? One can just switch when they start feeling pain.
  - dwringer 8y ago
    An alternative to using a different key layout is to use a contoured matrix-style ergonomic keyboard (where all keys are arranged in symmetric columns and curved to fit the hand). I did this a couple of years ago and can similarly report an immediate cessation of pains associated with typing, although I kept a QWERTY layout. The costs and adjustment period involved are still not completely trivial, though.
    - 4thaccount 8y ago
      Which keyboard do you use? I use a cheap Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 which works great. I may be ready to step up though.
      - dwringer 8y ago
        The one I got was the Kinesis Advantage 2, which I almost hesitate to recommend due to the sticker shock. I'd recommend trying to see if the idea of a more symmetrical typing posture appeals to you enough to be worth it (maybe just some non-typing exercises at your desk). I was at the point of having already adjusted my chair, desk height, and wrist angle (making sure not to rest the wrists while actually typing), and the keyboard was something of a last resort. That said, I am very satisfied and wish it were priced more competitively so it could be a more ubiquitous option. I ended up getting a hard shell briefcase to carry it around in while I learned to type on it (which took around 2-4 weeks, after which point switching back and forth with normal keyboards became less of a hassle).
oarsinsync 8y ago
Counterpoint to the people agreeing here at having a much higher dvorak typing speed vs qwerty speed, I've never tried dvorak, but I have a >100wpm typing speed on qwerty (every time I do a challenge with people at work on typeracer.com, I flag their bot-check validator/captcha process) having learnt to touch type as a teenager juggling multiple msn-messenger conversations without wanting the counterparty to be aware
- eloisant 8y ago
  I've been using Dvorak for about 5 years, then went back to qwerty because I'm doing all my typing on a laptop and I'm not 100% blind-typing. I also stopped because dvorak is not great for programming; you don't get as much as the benefits when you're not writing texts in English (as I did during my Ph.D, writing research articles) but you suffer because all shortcuts are designed to be convenient on a qwerty. I still miss dvorak, but for me it's not about typing speed as much as "hand movement". On a dvorak, most typing happens on the center row, on the stronger fingers, so I find it much more confortable to type. On a qwerty I feel like I'm constantly streching my hands around the keyboard while on a dvorak it's much more static.
busterarm 8y ago
I've been on a computer pretty much 12-16 hours a day for 30 years now. Dvorak only makes sense to me if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. On my own I have four different machines/OS and I frequently have to type at other peoples'. I spent 10 years in Dvorak, Colemak and a variety of modified Colemak layouts before settling back on qwerty. I never noticed much difference in typing speed between it and dvorak (~104wpm) and I am still without RSI. Using vim with dvorak is a real pain.
- maskros 8y ago
  "Using vim with dvorak is a real pain." That is not my experience, at all. Then again, I don't use Vim like notepad with "hjkl" instead of arrow keys... All the powerful movement and editing commands (b, w, $, 0, /foo, *, #, %, cw, dd, ^], ^t, cib, ., etc.) work just as well with dvorak as with qwerty.
  - dietr1ch 8y ago
    There's people that remap those on vim, but I found that doing so may force you to start remapping all the keys on every vim-inspired application and plug in. It happens that "J" and "K" are next to each other and easily reachable, and that "H" and "L" still are 2 columns away and "h" is on the left, so using them in their new position it's not that bad.
  - creese 8y ago
    When combined with Colemak, Vim's default keybindings are particularly bad. On Colemak, HJKL all map to the same finger.
- audunw 8y ago
  > if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. The keyboard itself is irrelevant. I'd recommend getting a keyboard without labels to free yourself from the idea that you need to look at them. All of the time? I don't get this. There's no problem switching between Dvorak and Qwerty if you do it regularly. It's like switching between bicycling and snowboarding.. you just switch the context for your muscle memory. Although you'll probably have a bit higher error rate on the layout you use less
boomlinde 8y ago
> I can still touch type qwerty and often do at work on co-workers' keyboards. I'm pretty slow though, about 40wpm (100 on dvorak), and I usually have to look at the keyboard. It's not touch typing if you have to look at the keyboard. > Whenever I am forced to type Qwerty I feel like I am doing finger calisthenics. It's tiring. Maybe it is generally tiring to use a layout that you're not the most comfortable with. > I plan to spend my entire career and much of my free time in front of a computer. Why on earth would I subject myself to anything less than the best interface system possible? That would be like a professional chef using the $20 knife block from the grocery store, or your doctor using WebMD to try and diagnose you. That's an interesting perspective. Have you also made the best choice of interface for your editor, your operating system, your window manager and all the other tools you use on a daily basis? Do you have the best chair, the best desk, the best office environment etc? If not, can you be sure that you aren't a chef with a really good knife block but a dull set of knives, a terrible stove or a slow dishwasher? Personally, I don't have the resources to research and apply the best choices in every possible area. I find that this is true for a lot of people. The POSIX tools I use on a daily basis certainly aren't ideal, neither is the programming language I currently work with. I still make small, incremental improvements to my workflow that I believe are more significant than a keyboard layout for some small tens of wpm improvement in typing speed. That said, I rarely spend a whole day typing. Much more of my time is spent considering what to type, a process that is normally only briefly interrupted by bursts of actual typing.

lsd5you 8y ago

Been using dvorak for perhaps 10 years myself. Ctrx-c/v/x, well they're not next to each other anymore (and kind need 2 hands to use)! I recommend using this, in my mind a way bigger improvement than just moving to dvorak itself. It's like having vim navigation everywhere, but better. https://manybutfinite.com/post/home-row-computing/ Pretty sure my WPM is something like < 20 wpm in Querty (70 in dvorak). I look like a complete beginner whenever I'm on someone elses machine. Not really sure how others keep the dual fluency.

dnautics 8y ago
Perfect dual fluency took me about ten years. I still sometimes get confused if I am using a keyboard that feels like one of my own. And then there was the time I dated someone who, unbeknownst to me, used Dvorak. "Hey, what the hell is wrong with your keyboard?"

Alex3917 8y ago

> I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school Same. I type on my laptop pretty much all day, and am not even close to having an RSI. To me using QWERTY just seems irresponsible, like driving without a seatbelt or something. If you don't use a computer that much then I guess that's one thing, but if you actually use one on a daily basis for your job and are using QWERTY then that just seems like a huge and unnecessary risk for both yourself and your employer/startup.

icebraining 8y ago
Everyone here seems to be saying that switching immediately eliminated their pain, so what's the risk? One can just switch when they start feeling pain.
- dwringer 8y ago
  An alternative to using a different key layout is to use a contoured matrix-style ergonomic keyboard (where all keys are arranged in symmetric columns and curved to fit the hand). I did this a couple of years ago and can similarly report an immediate cessation of pains associated with typing, although I kept a QWERTY layout. The costs and adjustment period involved are still not completely trivial, though.
  - 4thaccount 8y ago
    Which keyboard do you use? I use a cheap Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 which works great. I may be ready to step up though.
    - dwringer 8y ago
      The one I got was the Kinesis Advantage 2, which I almost hesitate to recommend due to the sticker shock. I'd recommend trying to see if the idea of a more symmetrical typing posture appeals to you enough to be worth it (maybe just some non-typing exercises at your desk). I was at the point of having already adjusted my chair, desk height, and wrist angle (making sure not to rest the wrists while actually typing), and the keyboard was something of a last resort. That said, I am very satisfied and wish it were priced more competitively so it could be a more ubiquitous option. I ended up getting a hard shell briefcase to carry it around in while I learned to type on it (which took around 2-4 weeks, after which point switching back and forth with normal keyboards became less of a hassle).

oarsinsync 8y ago

Counterpoint to the people agreeing here at having a much higher dvorak typing speed vs qwerty speed, I've never tried dvorak, but I have a >100wpm typing speed on qwerty (every time I do a challenge with people at work on typeracer.com, I flag their bot-check validator/captcha process) having learnt to touch type as a teenager juggling multiple msn-messenger conversations without wanting the counterparty to be aware

eloisant 8y ago
I've been using Dvorak for about 5 years, then went back to qwerty because I'm doing all my typing on a laptop and I'm not 100% blind-typing. I also stopped because dvorak is not great for programming; you don't get as much as the benefits when you're not writing texts in English (as I did during my Ph.D, writing research articles) but you suffer because all shortcuts are designed to be convenient on a qwerty. I still miss dvorak, but for me it's not about typing speed as much as "hand movement". On a dvorak, most typing happens on the center row, on the stronger fingers, so I find it much more confortable to type. On a qwerty I feel like I'm constantly streching my hands around the keyboard while on a dvorak it's much more static.

busterarm 8y ago

I've been on a computer pretty much 12-16 hours a day for 30 years now. Dvorak only makes sense to me if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. On my own I have four different machines/OS and I frequently have to type at other peoples'. I spent 10 years in Dvorak, Colemak and a variety of modified Colemak layouts before settling back on qwerty. I never noticed much difference in typing speed between it and dvorak (~104wpm) and I am still without RSI. Using vim with dvorak is a real pain.

maskros 8y ago
"Using vim with dvorak is a real pain." That is not my experience, at all. Then again, I don't use Vim like notepad with "hjkl" instead of arrow keys... All the powerful movement and editing commands (b, w, $, 0, /foo, *, #, %, cw, dd, ^], ^t, cib, ., etc.) work just as well with dvorak as with qwerty.
- dietr1ch 8y ago
  There's people that remap those on vim, but I found that doing so may force you to start remapping all the keys on every vim-inspired application and plug in. It happens that "J" and "K" are next to each other and easily reachable, and that "H" and "L" still are 2 columns away and "h" is on the left, so using them in their new position it's not that bad.
- creese 8y ago
  When combined with Colemak, Vim's default keybindings are particularly bad. On Colemak, HJKL all map to the same finger.
audunw 8y ago
> if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. The keyboard itself is irrelevant. I'd recommend getting a keyboard without labels to free yourself from the idea that you need to look at them. All of the time? I don't get this. There's no problem switching between Dvorak and Qwerty if you do it regularly. It's like switching between bicycling and snowboarding.. you just switch the context for your muscle memory. Although you'll probably have a bit higher error rate on the layout you use less

boomlinde 8y ago

> I can still touch type qwerty and often do at work on co-workers' keyboards. I'm pretty slow though, about 40wpm (100 on dvorak), and I usually have to look at the keyboard. It's not touch typing if you have to look at the keyboard. > Whenever I am forced to type Qwerty I feel like I am doing finger calisthenics. It's tiring. Maybe it is generally tiring to use a layout that you're not the most comfortable with. > I plan to spend my entire career and much of my free time in front of a computer. Why on earth would I subject myself to anything less than the best interface system possible? That would be like a professional chef using the $20 knife block from the grocery store, or your doctor using WebMD to try and diagnose you. That's an interesting perspective. Have you also made the best choice of interface for your editor, your operating system, your window manager and all the other tools you use on a daily basis? Do you have the best chair, the best desk, the best office environment etc? If not, can you be sure that you aren't a chef with a really good knife block but a dull set of knives, a terrible stove or a slow dishwasher? Personally, I don't have the resources to research and apply the best choices in every possible area. I find that this is true for a lot of people. The POSIX tools I use on a daily basis certainly aren't ideal, neither is the programming language I currently work with. I still make small, incremental improvements to my workflow that I believe are more significant than a keyboard layout for some small tens of wpm improvement in typing speed. That said, I rarely spend a whole day typing. Much more of my time is spent considering what to type, a process that is normally only briefly interrupted by bursts of actual typing.