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Frankly I think it’s so overstated that it’s edging toward self-parody. Of course a straight male won’t ever be able to compute the monstrosity of Patriarchy -

by eecc 8y ago

Frankly I think it’s so overstated that it’s edging toward self-parody. Of course a straight male won’t ever be able to compute the monstrosity of Patriarchy - ironically, it makes me a lesser human - but seriously, I’m not sure all this vitriol helps. Believe me, I’m relieved when I see a normal woman work at software. It raises my hope that we’re not inevitability stuck living in a Mad Men episode. A normal woman, not some edgy, fringe individual, just a plain female, not ugly nor beautiful, loud extrovert of not. Just plain average. And the next thought is how little there still are, and how all this punitive, calvinist moral panic might be focusing so much on castigation and not enough at making it chill for anyone to just pick up this job if they feel it’s their thing. I wonder how many walk away and do something else rather than become a walking flame-bait.

yawaramin 8y ago
Do you ever think maybe that most normal women walk away when they see a culture of objectification of women, of men making up all sorts of weird analogies and excuses to keep using Playboy pictures in the workplace, and that you telling them to just 'chill' might not actually fix the problem?
- eecc 8y ago
  And you’re still arguing along that fault line... and that’s the point really, it’s all about original sin and “gatekeepng”.
- eecc 8y ago
  Re-reading your reply I noticed you misread my comment: I never said anyone should “just chill” and comply... no. I wrote that it should be “chill for anyone to just pick up this job if they feel it’s their thing”. I’m quite sure there’s a world of difference
  - yawaramin 8y ago
    What exactly do you think is involved in making it “chill for anyone to just pick up this job if they feel it’s their thing”? Like, should anything different be done? Should anything be done at all? Or should we tell anyone who has any criticisms, 'nah we made it chill, so your criticism is actually invalid'?
    - eecc 8y ago
      IMHO any action should not be centered around combing history to formulate a constant moral (istic) judgement on past behavior. Sure, the most egregious cases of outspoken chauvinism should be addresses - preferably if they relate to something occurring today - but constant nitpick and blanket attack simply select for people with axes to grind who are motivated to quarrel. Propositive criticisms like "this attitude/prejudice/whatever, today is an obstacle now and we should work to remove it if we care about an inclusive society also in our industry and workplace." would be much more effective (IMHO.)
      - yawaramin 8y ago
        That is exactly what people are asking for. You just objected to exactly what people are not doing, and called for exactly what they are calling for.

by eecc 8y ago

yawaramin 8y ago

Do you ever think maybe that most normal women walk away when they see a culture of objectification of women, of men making up all sorts of weird analogies and excuses to keep using Playboy pictures in the workplace, and that you telling them to just 'chill' might not actually fix the problem?

eecc 8y ago
And you’re still arguing along that fault line... and that’s the point really, it’s all about original sin and “gatekeepng”.
eecc 8y ago
Re-reading your reply I noticed you misread my comment: I never said anyone should “just chill” and comply... no. I wrote that it should be “chill for anyone to just pick up this job if they feel it’s their thing”. I’m quite sure there’s a world of difference
- yawaramin 8y ago
  What exactly do you think is involved in making it “chill for anyone to just pick up this job if they feel it’s their thing”? Like, should anything different be done? Should anything be done at all? Or should we tell anyone who has any criticisms, 'nah we made it chill, so your criticism is actually invalid'?
  - eecc 8y ago
    IMHO any action should not be centered around combing history to formulate a constant moral (istic) judgement on past behavior. Sure, the most egregious cases of outspoken chauvinism should be addresses - preferably if they relate to something occurring today - but constant nitpick and blanket attack simply select for people with axes to grind who are motivated to quarrel. Propositive criticisms like "this attitude/prejudice/whatever, today is an obstacle now and we should work to remove it if we care about an inclusive society also in our industry and workplace." would be much more effective (IMHO.)
    - yawaramin 8y ago
      That is exactly what people are asking for. You just objected to exactly what people are not doing, and called for exactly what they are calling for.