6 ms·

Every year Stallman sounds less crazy. I used to think it didn't matter what tools I chose as a lone developer making consumer tech products and DSP audio appli

by pgt 8y ago

Every year Stallman sounds less crazy. I used to think it didn't matter what tools I chose as a lone developer making consumer tech products and DSP audio applications. But over time, I saw that consumers rely on frontier-makers more than you think, even though they may lag behind by a few years. I reluctantly switched to Firefox because it still has add-ons and since Chrome's web tools are so good. With Mozilla's Rust adoption, Firefox got fast. This means my web products work a little better on Firefox, intentional or not. When enough people make that choice, a tipping point forms in the future. Paul Graham wrote about this in "The Return of the Mac" [^1]. Don't underestimate the power of your choice at the frontier, even if it takes a while to reverberate through time. [^1]: http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html

Vogtinator 8y ago
> With Mozilla's Rust adoption, Firefox got fast. Those are unrelated.
- rat9988 8y ago
  I wonder why people make such bold wrong claims.
  - plg 8y ago
    I think in this case it’s probably because the person in question is simply mistaken. The other possibility is that they are some kind of Rust evangelist and they are actively trying to deceive people. I doubt it. Could we please approach each other with the benefit of the doubt? Could we please gently, constructively correct errors? I see no need to be so aggressive, especially in our current social/political climate.
    - rat9988 8y ago
      What current social/political climate? Moreover, the problem is that he claimed without research. And this is what bothers me. How can people be certain of something they have never seen confirmed anywhere.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  Well, it got faster because of Servo, which is written in Rust, so not completely unrelated, but yes, it did not get fast because of Rust the language.
- steveklabnik 8y ago
  Stylo was attempted in C++ twice. Both times it was too buggy and had to be thrown out. The third time, they used Rust. And it worked.
  - justanother- 8y ago
    But not becoase of Rust. To develop in c++/c you need to know what you are doing. The developers like that, are very rare today. (And now I will get -20 when whole Rust evengalist crew will reign down on me... :D :D :D And people complain about Russians manipulating the elections :D Nothin compared to Rust :D)
- j16sdiz 8y ago
  Most of recent Firefox performance come from parelelization in servo. Mozilla research said rush enabled them doing safe multuthreading.
  - justanother- 8y ago
    I can do safe multithreading in c++ at any time. But I will sit down with a solution for a while before I even start coding. Might even take more time than writting the code. I will outperform the Rust even if I will use inline assembly. Rust is the same as everything else. A good enough alternative for people incapable of understanding software development beyond copy pasting code from internet. And everyone else is too rare and expensive to hire him. And today "good enough" developers are harder to find than "good enough" language. Today no one is prepared to pay for quality thats why everything us bellow average, not only development, every single product you find. Actually it is funny the people are prepared to pay more for hype than quality. Wait a few more years and Rust will be "too hard to use". At the end javascript idiocracy will prevail. Buying Getoraid stocks, in 20 years they will be worth more than gold. Coz it has electrolytes.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
bufferoverflow 8y ago
Rust is slower than C++. Firefox got faster because it got optimized, not because of Rust.
- dklsafhjskljfl 8y ago
  This is a common misconception. In key benchmarks, it is the same speed (a few still lag, but not due to inherent weaknesses in the language). Earlier versions of rust were slower because the compiler didn't have the insane optimizations that many C++ compilers have. In fact, it may be easier for developers to write code that runs faster with rust than C++, thanks to much error and exception handling code that you simply do not need in Rust. Most importantly, however, is finding Rust developers who are experienced enough to write high-performance Rust. I would imagine that it's a lot easier to find C++ devs.
- nbaksalyar 8y ago
  > Rust is slower than C++ It may be, but there's also the concurrency aspect which is hard to get right in C++. That's where the performance gains come from, partially, because 'fearless concurrency' is one of the Rust's tenets.
- j16sdiz 8y ago
  Most come from concurrency. Rust make them easier.
- pcwalton 8y ago
  > Rust is slower than C++. That's a bold claim to make without any justification!
kome 8y ago
Stallman was right all along.
itissid 8y ago
I think Rust adoption has more to do with developer productivity than speed: - People preferring the compiler to yell at them to fix their Type mistakes before they hit the "run tests" button. - Getting a better IR for better error messages. Amongst others...
- jrochkind1 8y ago
  Perhaps increased developer productivity provides more developer hours for performance tuning.
sokoloff 8y ago
Footnote in pg's article makes me wonder what the stats are today. I'd guess Windows down, Mac way up, Linux/FreeBSD about flat [maybe slightly up], but I have no idea. [2] Y Combinator is (we hope) visited mostly by hackers. The proportions of OSes are: Windows 66.4%, Macintosh 18.8%, Linux 11.4%, and FreeBSD 1.5%. The Mac number is a big change from what it would have been five years ago.
- kerng 8y ago
  Wow, that the majority is Windows is a bit unexpected to me. Really shows how powerful and omnipresent Windows actually still is - something that is often forgotten when living in certain tech bubbles. Linux with 11% is quite high, I like that. What seems lower then expected are the Mac numbers to me. Thanks for sharing.
  - andreigheorghe 8y ago
    The linked article, and its footnote quoted above, are from 2005.
    - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
      Yes, I would expect unix/linux to be the majority now, since that is what people are running on their phones.
zamakan 8y ago
Agree!! I used to find his claims amusing but I’m paying the price now.
esistgut 8y ago
I did the switch to Firefox too but can't help notice during frontend (Angular and React) development that Chrome reload my apps significantly faster.
- kgwxd 8y ago
  Cache disabled when dev tools open in FF but not Chrome?
  - hartator 8y ago
    Cache is disabled in chrome when dev tools are open.
kgwxd 8y ago
At this point in time, there's hundres of real world exmples of every single "crazy" warning given by Stallman.
- Silhouette 8y ago
  The difficulty is that many of those examples are also doing useful things that the more open/free alternatives aren't. We are developing an unfortunate dichotomy between commercially supported, closed ecosystems with lock-in and rapid update cycles that provide superior functionality and more community-driven, open ecosystems with standards and future-proofing but inferior functionality. If the open versions aren't too far behind the closed ones in functionality and performance, that's just another form of competition and perhaps a healthy one. But if we start to get too much lock-in, which is inherently a one-way process favouring the closed systems in this situation, and in particular if important data or external systems become accessible only from the closed systems, then we have a more serious problem, as we're seeing ever more clearly with the worlds of mobile devices, IoT and "evergreen" software.
  - yogthos 8y ago
    That's the choice we each have to make for ourselves. Be a serf in corporate walled garden for short term convenience, or help build and improve the open ecosystem so it can catch up.
    - paulryanrogers 8y ago
      > Be a serf in corporate walled garden for short term convenience... There is a spectrum from the cathedral to the bazaar. And there are only so many hours in the day. You could become a serf to principles, spending time others have for social activities or relaxing instead on maintaining a purely libre work flow.
      - yogthos 8y ago
        There's a fundamental difference between you owning your tools and somebody else loaning them to you. You can save some time in the short term. However once the company starts going in a direction that doesn't work for you, then you end up getting screwed. I've been burned enough times over the years that I'd much rather use open source tools whenever possible. The beauty of open source tools is that they're not driven by need for profit. As long as there's a community of users who want to use a tool then it's going to keep being maintained and working the way the users want. It doesn't need to be profitable or grow it's market share. So I'd much rather be a serf to principles and have control over my life than be a serf to a bunch of companies with their own goals and agendas. That's just me though.
hrktb 8y ago
What’s frightening is that most people agreed with his views, but weren’t willing to commit to them because of practicality. I of course am one of them. Decades later, I think we are still at a point where following his ideas come at a very steep price in performance and day to day usage. For instance any dev that touches an iOs app in any way or form (even if it’s just to run in on test devices) is better off with a mac. There’s ton of prevalent android apps that won’t work without the Play Store, and even rooting the phone is already seen as an hostile act from many vendors. The list goes on and on, keeping hardware or software free is still an insane move that needs sizeable sacrifices. And it’s scary there’s no indication of the situation to change for the better.
- justanother- 8y ago
  If you are willing to try, microg mimics play store and apps will work without it. Happy user for ~2 years. https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/ Read faq.
  - ngold 8y ago
    Thanks for the heads up. Definitely checking it out.
isoskeles 8y ago
I tried switching to Firefox about two years ago and went straight back to Chrome because it was so slow. It would lag when I opened a new tab and started typing to get to another site. Many times, the first few characters off a hostname or search would get dropped. Tried again about six months ago, and I haven't looked back. Firefox is great again. Not sure if the Rust adoption happened between those two points in time. I still have to use Chrome for Hangouts for work. And still trying to figure out a way around this.
- totony 8y ago
  IIRC hangout works with firefox if you spoof user agent
  - isoskeles 8y ago
    Thanks! I'll try that.
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  There have been a lot of incremental changes, but the big one was "Firefox Quantum" in November 2017 https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/11/14/introducing-firefox-quantum/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/11/14/introducing-firefox...

by pgt 8y ago

Vogtinator 8y ago

> With Mozilla's Rust adoption, Firefox got fast. Those are unrelated.

rat9988 8y ago
I wonder why people make such bold wrong claims.
- plg 8y ago
  I think in this case it’s probably because the person in question is simply mistaken. The other possibility is that they are some kind of Rust evangelist and they are actively trying to deceive people. I doubt it. Could we please approach each other with the benefit of the doubt? Could we please gently, constructively correct errors? I see no need to be so aggressive, especially in our current social/political climate.
  - rat9988 8y ago
    What current social/political climate? Moreover, the problem is that he claimed without research. And this is what bothers me. How can people be certain of something they have never seen confirmed anywhere.
AsyncAwait 8y ago
Well, it got faster because of Servo, which is written in Rust, so not completely unrelated, but yes, it did not get fast because of Rust the language.
steveklabnik 8y ago
Stylo was attempted in C++ twice. Both times it was too buggy and had to be thrown out. The third time, they used Rust. And it worked.
- justanother- 8y ago
  But not becoase of Rust. To develop in c++/c you need to know what you are doing. The developers like that, are very rare today. (And now I will get -20 when whole Rust evengalist crew will reign down on me... :D :D :D And people complain about Russians manipulating the elections :D Nothin compared to Rust :D)
j16sdiz 8y ago
Most of recent Firefox performance come from parelelization in servo. Mozilla research said rush enabled them doing safe multuthreading.
- justanother- 8y ago
  I can do safe multithreading in c++ at any time. But I will sit down with a solution for a while before I even start coding. Might even take more time than writting the code. I will outperform the Rust even if I will use inline assembly. Rust is the same as everything else. A good enough alternative for people incapable of understanding software development beyond copy pasting code from internet. And everyone else is too rare and expensive to hire him. And today "good enough" developers are harder to find than "good enough" language. Today no one is prepared to pay for quality thats why everything us bellow average, not only development, every single product you find. Actually it is funny the people are prepared to pay more for hype than quality. Wait a few more years and Rust will be "too hard to use". At the end javascript idiocracy will prevail. Buying Getoraid stocks, in 20 years they will be worth more than gold. Coz it has electrolytes.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

bufferoverflow 8y ago

Rust is slower than C++. Firefox got faster because it got optimized, not because of Rust.

dklsafhjskljfl 8y ago
This is a common misconception. In key benchmarks, it is the same speed (a few still lag, but not due to inherent weaknesses in the language). Earlier versions of rust were slower because the compiler didn't have the insane optimizations that many C++ compilers have. In fact, it may be easier for developers to write code that runs faster with rust than C++, thanks to much error and exception handling code that you simply do not need in Rust. Most importantly, however, is finding Rust developers who are experienced enough to write high-performance Rust. I would imagine that it's a lot easier to find C++ devs.
nbaksalyar 8y ago
> Rust is slower than C++ It may be, but there's also the concurrency aspect which is hard to get right in C++. That's where the performance gains come from, partially, because 'fearless concurrency' is one of the Rust's tenets.
j16sdiz 8y ago
Most come from concurrency. Rust make them easier.
pcwalton 8y ago
> Rust is slower than C++. That's a bold claim to make without any justification!

kome 8y ago

Stallman was right all along.

itissid 8y ago

I think Rust adoption has more to do with developer productivity than speed: - People preferring the compiler to yell at them to fix their Type mistakes before they hit the "run tests" button. - Getting a better IR for better error messages. Amongst others...

jrochkind1 8y ago
Perhaps increased developer productivity provides more developer hours for performance tuning.

sokoloff 8y ago

Footnote in pg's article makes me wonder what the stats are today. I'd guess Windows down, Mac way up, Linux/FreeBSD about flat [maybe slightly up], but I have no idea. [2] Y Combinator is (we hope) visited mostly by hackers. The proportions of OSes are: Windows 66.4%, Macintosh 18.8%, Linux 11.4%, and FreeBSD 1.5%. The Mac number is a big change from what it would have been five years ago.

kerng 8y ago
Wow, that the majority is Windows is a bit unexpected to me. Really shows how powerful and omnipresent Windows actually still is - something that is often forgotten when living in certain tech bubbles. Linux with 11% is quite high, I like that. What seems lower then expected are the Mac numbers to me. Thanks for sharing.
- andreigheorghe 8y ago
  The linked article, and its footnote quoted above, are from 2005.
  - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
    Yes, I would expect unix/linux to be the majority now, since that is what people are running on their phones.

zamakan 8y ago

Agree!! I used to find his claims amusing but I’m paying the price now.

esistgut 8y ago

I did the switch to Firefox too but can't help notice during frontend (Angular and React) development that Chrome reload my apps significantly faster.

kgwxd 8y ago
Cache disabled when dev tools open in FF but not Chrome?
- hartator 8y ago
  Cache is disabled in chrome when dev tools are open.

kgwxd 8y ago

At this point in time, there's hundres of real world exmples of every single "crazy" warning given by Stallman.

Silhouette 8y ago
The difficulty is that many of those examples are also doing useful things that the more open/free alternatives aren't. We are developing an unfortunate dichotomy between commercially supported, closed ecosystems with lock-in and rapid update cycles that provide superior functionality and more community-driven, open ecosystems with standards and future-proofing but inferior functionality. If the open versions aren't too far behind the closed ones in functionality and performance, that's just another form of competition and perhaps a healthy one. But if we start to get too much lock-in, which is inherently a one-way process favouring the closed systems in this situation, and in particular if important data or external systems become accessible only from the closed systems, then we have a more serious problem, as we're seeing ever more clearly with the worlds of mobile devices, IoT and "evergreen" software.
- yogthos 8y ago
  That's the choice we each have to make for ourselves. Be a serf in corporate walled garden for short term convenience, or help build and improve the open ecosystem so it can catch up.
  - paulryanrogers 8y ago
    > Be a serf in corporate walled garden for short term convenience... There is a spectrum from the cathedral to the bazaar. And there are only so many hours in the day. You could become a serf to principles, spending time others have for social activities or relaxing instead on maintaining a purely libre work flow.
    - yogthos 8y ago
      There's a fundamental difference between you owning your tools and somebody else loaning them to you. You can save some time in the short term. However once the company starts going in a direction that doesn't work for you, then you end up getting screwed. I've been burned enough times over the years that I'd much rather use open source tools whenever possible. The beauty of open source tools is that they're not driven by need for profit. As long as there's a community of users who want to use a tool then it's going to keep being maintained and working the way the users want. It doesn't need to be profitable or grow it's market share. So I'd much rather be a serf to principles and have control over my life than be a serf to a bunch of companies with their own goals and agendas. That's just me though.

hrktb 8y ago

What’s frightening is that most people agreed with his views, but weren’t willing to commit to them because of practicality. I of course am one of them. Decades later, I think we are still at a point where following his ideas come at a very steep price in performance and day to day usage. For instance any dev that touches an iOs app in any way or form (even if it’s just to run in on test devices) is better off with a mac. There’s ton of prevalent android apps that won’t work without the Play Store, and even rooting the phone is already seen as an hostile act from many vendors. The list goes on and on, keeping hardware or software free is still an insane move that needs sizeable sacrifices. And it’s scary there’s no indication of the situation to change for the better.

justanother- 8y ago
If you are willing to try, microg mimics play store and apps will work without it. Happy user for ~2 years. https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/ Read faq.
- ngold 8y ago
  Thanks for the heads up. Definitely checking it out.

isoskeles 8y ago

I tried switching to Firefox about two years ago and went straight back to Chrome because it was so slow. It would lag when I opened a new tab and started typing to get to another site. Many times, the first few characters off a hostname or search would get dropped. Tried again about six months ago, and I haven't looked back. Firefox is great again. Not sure if the Rust adoption happened between those two points in time. I still have to use Chrome for Hangouts for work. And still trying to figure out a way around this.

totony 8y ago
IIRC hangout works with firefox if you spoof user agent
- isoskeles 8y ago
  Thanks! I'll try that.
wlesieutre 8y ago
There have been a lot of incremental changes, but the big one was "Firefox Quantum" in November 2017 https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/11/14/introducing-firefox-quantum/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/11/14/introducing-firefox...