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Did you read the article? The implication is that union discussions caused the pullout, not the "toxic minority voices". It's more evidence of Amazon's relentle

Did you read the article? The implication is that union discussions caused the pullout, not the "toxic minority voices". It's more evidence of Amazon's relentless exploitation of labor.

gpm 8y ago
> It's more evidence of Amazon's relentless exploitation of labor. That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is it's more evidence of the inefficiencies and corruption created by the current unions. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
- rmrfrmrf 8y ago
  Im not one for centrist truth synthesis. The only people who are against unions are those who are trained to be.
  - dwaltrip 8y ago
    > The only people who are against unions are those who are trained to be. It hurts your credibility to fail to acknowledge any legitimate critiques.
    - ileri62 8y ago
      It hurts your credibility to be unable to take position. Don't play the mastermind when in reality you're too scared/dumb to see the truth. Centrists truly are the worst
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - dwaltrip 8y ago
        Ah yes, you have correctly identified the chief drivers of my political viewpoints: fear and stupidity. Very well then, it looks like our work here is done.
        ileri62 8y ago
        Funny, because in reality you fell for the FUD campaign against unions. You must have single digit IQ
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  How extreme would Amazon's position have to be before you would stop saying 'the truth is in the middle'? Would it be Amazon demanding an office worker travel the day after her miscarriage? > The Times has uncovered several cases where workers who were sick, grieving, or otherwise encumbered by the realities of life were pushed out of the company. A woman who had a miscarriage was told to travel on a business trip the day after both her twins were stillborn. Another woman recovering from breast cancer was given poor performance rankings and was warned that she was in danger of losing her job. Would it be Amazon keeping ambulances at their warehouses rather than paying for air conditioning? Or working people hard enough that they had to pee in bottles and most people have to quit after 6 months because of the strain on their bodies?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- threeseed 8y ago
  There is a direct correlation between the decline in unionism and the lack of growth in wages. So acting like having no unions is a good thing is not actually true.
  - gpm 8y ago
    I'm certainly not saying "no unions are a good thing", generally speaking I think unions are a good thing (and that's as far into politics as I want to get on HN). I am saying "there are drawbacks as well, and this 'evidence' points to the drawbacks as much as it points to the advantages". It's disingenuous to argue otherwise, and perhaps more importantly, isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you because they will just take the other interpretation.
jdavis703 8y ago
Why do people making $150,000 a year, working safe jobs behind a desk, need a union? If this was about unionizing their warehouse staff I could understand sinking the deal. But white collar people making six figures don’t need the legal and organizing framework a union provides (for example see the employee actions at Google over the last year).
- danharaj 8y ago
  Because controlling the conditions of your work is more than just a paycheck. Especially for tech workers whose work has a transformative impact on society. If you've ever been pressured into doing something unethical, that is a perfectly good rationale for forming a union.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rmrfrmrf 8y ago
  I assumed the union talks were for the lower-paid foundation service staff more than the professional class, though I do think there's value in devs/ops organizing to demand more favorable work conditions. At any rate, Amazon is worried about a snowball effect of other areas unionizing in New York's wake.
- threeseed 8y ago
  I don't think you understand how large companies work. An engineer is never negotiating their employment conditions with HR or with senior executives. It's with their direct line manager. Who often has no power to ask for anything like parental leave or some other workplace condition. Unions negotiate at the VP of HR level and so they can demand significant changes.
  - RhysU 8y ago
    That must be why tech companies have had increasingly nice working conditions and, in particular, markedly longer parental leave policies of late. All the unions.
sct202 8y ago
I think it's surprising that they'd be afraid of NYC unions, while operating without issue in Washington which is about just as union heavy as NY.

Did you read the article? The implication is that union discussions caused the pullout, not the "toxic minority voices". It's more evidence of Amazon's relentless exploitation of labor.

gpm 8y ago

> It's more evidence of Amazon's relentless exploitation of labor. That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is it's more evidence of the inefficiencies and corruption created by the current unions. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

rmrfrmrf 8y ago
Im not one for centrist truth synthesis. The only people who are against unions are those who are trained to be.
- dwaltrip 8y ago
  > The only people who are against unions are those who are trained to be. It hurts your credibility to fail to acknowledge any legitimate critiques.
  - ileri62 8y ago
    It hurts your credibility to be unable to take position. Don't play the mastermind when in reality you're too scared/dumb to see the truth. Centrists truly are the worst
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - dwaltrip 8y ago
      Ah yes, you have correctly identified the chief drivers of my political viewpoints: fear and stupidity. Very well then, it looks like our work here is done.
      - ileri62 8y ago
        Funny, because in reality you fell for the FUD campaign against unions. You must have single digit IQ
awakeasleep 8y ago
How extreme would Amazon's position have to be before you would stop saying 'the truth is in the middle'? Would it be Amazon demanding an office worker travel the day after her miscarriage? > The Times has uncovered several cases where workers who were sick, grieving, or otherwise encumbered by the realities of life were pushed out of the company. A woman who had a miscarriage was told to travel on a business trip the day after both her twins were stillborn. Another woman recovering from breast cancer was given poor performance rankings and was warned that she was in danger of losing her job. Would it be Amazon keeping ambulances at their warehouses rather than paying for air conditioning? Or working people hard enough that they had to pee in bottles and most people have to quit after 6 months because of the strain on their bodies?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
threeseed 8y ago
There is a direct correlation between the decline in unionism and the lack of growth in wages. So acting like having no unions is a good thing is not actually true.
- gpm 8y ago
  I'm certainly not saying "no unions are a good thing", generally speaking I think unions are a good thing (and that's as far into politics as I want to get on HN). I am saying "there are drawbacks as well, and this 'evidence' points to the drawbacks as much as it points to the advantages". It's disingenuous to argue otherwise, and perhaps more importantly, isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you because they will just take the other interpretation.

jdavis703 8y ago

Why do people making $150,000 a year, working safe jobs behind a desk, need a union? If this was about unionizing their warehouse staff I could understand sinking the deal. But white collar people making six figures don’t need the legal and organizing framework a union provides (for example see the employee actions at Google over the last year).

danharaj 8y ago
Because controlling the conditions of your work is more than just a paycheck. Especially for tech workers whose work has a transformative impact on society. If you've ever been pressured into doing something unethical, that is a perfectly good rationale for forming a union.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rmrfrmrf 8y ago
I assumed the union talks were for the lower-paid foundation service staff more than the professional class, though I do think there's value in devs/ops organizing to demand more favorable work conditions. At any rate, Amazon is worried about a snowball effect of other areas unionizing in New York's wake.
threeseed 8y ago
I don't think you understand how large companies work. An engineer is never negotiating their employment conditions with HR or with senior executives. It's with their direct line manager. Who often has no power to ask for anything like parental leave or some other workplace condition. Unions negotiate at the VP of HR level and so they can demand significant changes.
- RhysU 8y ago
  That must be why tech companies have had increasingly nice working conditions and, in particular, markedly longer parental leave policies of late. All the unions.

sct202 8y ago

I think it's surprising that they'd be afraid of NYC unions, while operating without issue in Washington which is about just as union heavy as NY.