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Quite normal everywhere in the world. It almost sounds like a contradiction in terms: “minimum wage” and “own apartment”. Here in Switzerland, I probably won’t

Quite normal everywhere in the world. It almost sounds like a contradiction in terms: “minimum wage” and “own apartment”. Here in Switzerland, I probably won’t be able to ever afford my own apartment, despite earning about $100k/year (and with “minimum wage”, it is solidly in a realm of fantasy). Were things different in the United States at some point?

endofcapital 8y ago
It wasn't normal at all anywhere in the world until very recently. The world has changed so much in just 50 years that people often just flat out don't believe me when I tell them what it used to be like. Even when I'm willing to present evidence, they just don't believe it. I'm not sure how to overcome that.
chimeracoder 8y ago
> . Were things different in the United States at some point? No, at no point in the history of the US, even when the minimum wage was first created, would the minimum wage have been enough to afford the median 1BR.
- masonic 8y ago
  Back in the 1950s, minimum wage and CoL were based on a metric of a single woman living very frugally and sharing a 2-bedroom apartment.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ThePadawan 8y ago
Are you talking about "owning" an apartment? In that case I would agree, else I would have to highly doubt your statement. (Source: Similar income, living on my own and in Switzerland, within 30min of a major city)
- atemerev 8y ago
  Yes, owning.
maratd 8y ago
> Were things different in the United States at some point? No, but there is a political movement in the United States toward a universal income upon which anyone can live comfortably and this is a symptom of that. Jobs that were previously considered in the realm of "teenager jobs" are now perceived as actual career tracks and a means toward a living. I'm not sure how flipping burgers is a career, but to each his own. On the other side, those same jobs are also being heavily assaulted by automation.
- scroot 8y ago
  It's not a matter of perception. Since the recession, most of the new jobs created have been of the low/minimum and part time variety.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  > Jobs that were previously considered in the realm of "teenager jobs" are now perceived as actual career tracks and a means toward a living. This is a funny way of writing "previously lucrative careers available to blue-collar workers have largely evaporated".
  - hedvig 8y ago
    > "previously lucrative careers available to blue-collar workers have largely evaporated". This is a funny way of writing "citizens should just accept any scraps they get"
  - atemerev 8y ago
    Trades are as strong as ever. Only manufacturing jobs evaporated, but this is not about automation, this is because of a certain country starting with “C” (not Canada).
- lenticular 8y ago
  A few decades ago, you could support a family and buy a house on one income, with only a high school education. That is not remotely true anymore.
graeme 8y ago
They're talking about renting I believe. In American English apartment generally means rent, and condo generally means own. The article really should have made this clear though.
bleakcabal 8y ago
It's afford to rent not afford to own. There are people with full time jobs living out of cars. I'm sure at 100k you can afford to rent a one room apartment.
- atemerev 8y ago
  Yes, of course. OK, renting is another story.
  - hackerman12345 8y ago
    Americans use the word apartment as something that is rented. You don't buy an apartment, well unless you're a landlord. It's owned by somebody else. I think the way you are using the word is our "condo", perhaps.
tyingq 8y ago
"Were things different in the United States at some point?" Anecdotal, but when I was a kid in the 80s, minimum wage jobs were mostly part-time, and meant for teenagers living at home, bored retirees, etc. Unskilled workers with any sort of ambition could fairly easily get 2 to 3x minimum wage and afford a very modest studio apartment. Once manufacturing jobs went away, it seemed to kill that off. Before that, even if you didn't work in a factory, other employers had to compete for that wage level.
- jvanderbot 8y ago
  Exactly. The expectation that any and every job should be a path to complete financial independence is ridiculous.
  - tyingq 8y ago
    True, though ambition and work ethic isn't always enough for basic financial independence now. It used to be.
jvanderbot 8y ago
US here: I'm baffled by the assumption that every single job must pay enough for a 1BR apt. When I was 14, I worked in fast food, and never expected to be able to afford anything other than hobby dollars. We have a shortage of totally-unskilled jobs that can support a family if both parents work, and that has translated into calls for things like increased minimum wage. But there is not a shortage of jobs for those willing to put a year or two into trade training, and those often pay well enough to buy a home in a small town. Many of the fastest growing jobs (bls.gov)[1] pay well over $10/hr and require little a priori skills. Here you can make 2-4 times that with no education [2] And here you can take 2 years of school to get a job that pays quite well[3]. Well enough to easily buy your own home and remain employed in a fast-growing sector for life. In some communities, those two years are paid for as long as you go to tech school in the same district you went to high-school in. This minimum wage argument hides the real opportunities. Re-training and education is the key. 1. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm 2. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=%2455%2C000+to+%2474%2C999&education=High+school+diploma+or+equivalent&training=&newjobs=&growth=Faster+than+average&submit=GO https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=%2455%2C00... 3. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=&education=Associate%26rsquo%3Bs+degree&training=&newjobs=&growth=Much+faster+than+average&submit=GO https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=&education...

endofcapital 8y ago

It wasn't normal at all anywhere in the world until very recently. The world has changed so much in just 50 years that people often just flat out don't believe me when I tell them what it used to be like. Even when I'm willing to present evidence, they just don't believe it. I'm not sure how to overcome that.

chimeracoder 8y ago

> . Were things different in the United States at some point? No, at no point in the history of the US, even when the minimum wage was first created, would the minimum wage have been enough to afford the median 1BR.

masonic 8y ago
Back in the 1950s, minimum wage and CoL were based on a metric of a single woman living very frugally and sharing a 2-bedroom apartment.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ThePadawan 8y ago

Are you talking about "owning" an apartment? In that case I would agree, else I would have to highly doubt your statement. (Source: Similar income, living on my own and in Switzerland, within 30min of a major city)

atemerev 8y ago
Yes, owning.

maratd 8y ago

> Were things different in the United States at some point? No, but there is a political movement in the United States toward a universal income upon which anyone can live comfortably and this is a symptom of that. Jobs that were previously considered in the realm of "teenager jobs" are now perceived as actual career tracks and a means toward a living. I'm not sure how flipping burgers is a career, but to each his own. On the other side, those same jobs are also being heavily assaulted by automation.

scroot 8y ago
It's not a matter of perception. Since the recession, most of the new jobs created have been of the low/minimum and part time variety.
ceejayoz 8y ago
> Jobs that were previously considered in the realm of "teenager jobs" are now perceived as actual career tracks and a means toward a living. This is a funny way of writing "previously lucrative careers available to blue-collar workers have largely evaporated".
- hedvig 8y ago
  > "previously lucrative careers available to blue-collar workers have largely evaporated". This is a funny way of writing "citizens should just accept any scraps they get"
- atemerev 8y ago
  Trades are as strong as ever. Only manufacturing jobs evaporated, but this is not about automation, this is because of a certain country starting with “C” (not Canada).
lenticular 8y ago
A few decades ago, you could support a family and buy a house on one income, with only a high school education. That is not remotely true anymore.

graeme 8y ago

They're talking about renting I believe. In American English apartment generally means rent, and condo generally means own. The article really should have made this clear though.

bleakcabal 8y ago

It's afford to rent not afford to own. There are people with full time jobs living out of cars. I'm sure at 100k you can afford to rent a one room apartment.

atemerev 8y ago
Yes, of course. OK, renting is another story.
- hackerman12345 8y ago
  Americans use the word apartment as something that is rented. You don't buy an apartment, well unless you're a landlord. It's owned by somebody else. I think the way you are using the word is our "condo", perhaps.

tyingq 8y ago

"Were things different in the United States at some point?" Anecdotal, but when I was a kid in the 80s, minimum wage jobs were mostly part-time, and meant for teenagers living at home, bored retirees, etc. Unskilled workers with any sort of ambition could fairly easily get 2 to 3x minimum wage and afford a very modest studio apartment. Once manufacturing jobs went away, it seemed to kill that off. Before that, even if you didn't work in a factory, other employers had to compete for that wage level.

jvanderbot 8y ago
Exactly. The expectation that any and every job should be a path to complete financial independence is ridiculous.
- tyingq 8y ago
  True, though ambition and work ethic isn't always enough for basic financial independence now. It used to be.

jvanderbot 8y ago

US here: I'm baffled by the assumption that every single job must pay enough for a 1BR apt. When I was 14, I worked in fast food, and never expected to be able to afford anything other than hobby dollars. We have a shortage of totally-unskilled jobs that can support a family if both parents work, and that has translated into calls for things like increased minimum wage. But there is not a shortage of jobs for those willing to put a year or two into trade training, and those often pay well enough to buy a home in a small town. Many of the fastest growing jobs (bls.gov)[1] pay well over $10/hr and require little a priori skills. Here you can make 2-4 times that with no education [2] And here you can take 2 years of school to get a job that pays quite well[3]. Well enough to easily buy your own home and remain employed in a fast-growing sector for life. In some communities, those two years are paid for as long as you go to tech school in the same district you went to high-school in. This minimum wage argument hides the real opportunities. Re-training and education is the key. 1. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm 2. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=%2455%2C000+to+%2474%2C999&education=High+school+diploma+or+equivalent&training=&newjobs=&growth=Faster+than+average&submit=GO https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=%2455%2C00... 3. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=&education=Associate%26rsquo%3Bs+degree&training=&newjobs=&growth=Much+faster+than+average&submit=GO https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=&education...