6 ms·

In the end, something was done about it, was it not? Germany is not currently fascist, so clearly it is within the power of humans to reverse it. Yes, it wasn'

by imgabe 8y ago

In the end, something was done about it, was it not? Germany is not currently fascist, so clearly it is within the power of humans to reverse it. Yes, it wasn't easy, but hopefully we have learned something from the last time that we can use to make it easier the next time? If it is not within our power to control...then how was it controlled? Did the Nazis just lose interest and give up?

jacquesm 8y ago
A couple of million people and their descendants would like a word with you. It's all fun and word games until its your relatives that end up in a gas chamber somewhere. So yes, sure, 'something' was done about it. But that something did not magically resurrect the people that didn't make it. And as for having learned something from the last time, it does not look like we have learned all that much. > If it is not within our power to control...then how was it controlled? Did the Nazis just lose interest and give up? I take it these are rhetorical questions that need no answer.
fwsgonzo 8y ago
They were defeated, trialled and hanged in Nuremberg, by judges from all over. One of the most important things we learned was that following orders is not an excuse.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Or given cozy jobs in the US rocket program.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
> Yes, it wasn't easy, but hopefully we have learned something from the last time that we can use to make it easier the next time? You didn't notice the irony that you are the one who insists on not learning from it, did you? > If it is not within our power to control...then how was it controlled? Did the Nazis just lose interest and give up? You are seriously telling us that you cannot distinguish 6 million jews killed from no jews killed? Or is "controlled" a word that you use to describe anything that at least one person survived in the end?
- imgabe 8y ago
  What lesson do you think should be learned? That when freedom is threatened,we should cower, run away and hide? Because that sure isn't what stopped fascism the last time. Bullies need to be fought, not capitulated to
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Stop with the strawmen, please. It is getting silly.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
    > That when freedom is threatened,we should cower, run away and hide? How about that when freedom is threatened, we should not be telling the enemy all our secrets? > Because that sure isn't what stopped fascism the last time. Except that is exactly what is stopping fascism all the time. What you are doing is that you are looking at only the cases where fascism happened, and then concluding that--surprise--fascism wasn't prevented. That's exactly the same logic as saying that "vaccines haven't stopped the disease last time", pointing to the exceptional cases where vaccination didn't lead to immunity, and using that as an argument against the effectiveness of vaccination. > Bullies need to be fought, not capitulated to So, which bullies are you fighting right now?
    - imgabe 8y ago
      > How about that when freedom is threatened, we should not be telling the enemy all our secrets? Who is talking about secrets? What I have been saying all along is that none of this information is particularly secret or sensitive. Your address is not a secret. Your employer or the fact that you have children is not a secret. Your religion is not a secret. Even Jews, who have more cause to be concerned than anyone, do not go to great lengths to hide their religion, nor should they. If anything, many outwardly wear markers of their religion in public, and why should they live in fear and hide as you would have them do? Instead of telling them to hide themselves, how about we stop people who would attack them for their religion? As you go about interacting with people in the public sphere, you will necessarily expose certain pieces of information about yourself. That is unavoidable. You want to live in a place where the government collects taxes and pays for roads and police and such? Well, then the government is going to need to know your address. You want to have public school for your kids? Well guess what, there's going to have to be a record somewhere that you have kids. You want to go to church in an easily accessible building in a public space and not in a secret underground bunker? Well, people are going to be able to see that you go to that church. Deal with it. Unless you want to live alone in the forest as a hermit, a certain amount of information-sharing is necessary to participate in society. The fact that that information can be collected and aggregated is also unavoidable. What happens next, the actions that particular people or groups take with that information, THAT is what is avoidable, and where our efforts should be concentrated. The fact that there is a database of people's addresses is not a problem. If there is a goon squad rounding up people at those address, the goon squad is the problem.
pmoriarty 8y ago
"Germany is not currently fascist, so clearly it is within the power of humans to reverse it." Germany as a whole is not ruled by fascists, but there are a significant number of neo-nazis, fascists, fascist sympathizers, bigots and racists in it. They've even done surprisingly well in some elections and control parts of the government. It's not inconceivable that some day there may be a Fourth Reich.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  It is almost as though there is a race on to see who will go into history as the next country to be embarrassed for decades. I'm surprised to see Germany in that list to begin with and it is a pity that there are still plenty of people who refuse to learn from history.

by imgabe 8y ago

jacquesm 8y ago

A couple of million people and their descendants would like a word with you. It's all fun and word games until its your relatives that end up in a gas chamber somewhere. So yes, sure, 'something' was done about it. But that something did not magically resurrect the people that didn't make it. And as for having learned something from the last time, it does not look like we have learned all that much. > If it is not within our power to control...then how was it controlled? Did the Nazis just lose interest and give up? I take it these are rhetorical questions that need no answer.

fwsgonzo 8y ago

They were defeated, trialled and hanged in Nuremberg, by judges from all over. One of the most important things we learned was that following orders is not an excuse.

jacquesm 8y ago
Or given cozy jobs in the US rocket program.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago

> Yes, it wasn't easy, but hopefully we have learned something from the last time that we can use to make it easier the next time? You didn't notice the irony that you are the one who insists on not learning from it, did you? > If it is not within our power to control...then how was it controlled? Did the Nazis just lose interest and give up? You are seriously telling us that you cannot distinguish 6 million jews killed from no jews killed? Or is "controlled" a word that you use to describe anything that at least one person survived in the end?

imgabe 8y ago
What lesson do you think should be learned? That when freedom is threatened,we should cower, run away and hide? Because that sure isn't what stopped fascism the last time. Bullies need to be fought, not capitulated to
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Stop with the strawmen, please. It is getting silly.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  > That when freedom is threatened,we should cower, run away and hide? How about that when freedom is threatened, we should not be telling the enemy all our secrets? > Because that sure isn't what stopped fascism the last time. Except that is exactly what is stopping fascism all the time. What you are doing is that you are looking at only the cases where fascism happened, and then concluding that--surprise--fascism wasn't prevented. That's exactly the same logic as saying that "vaccines haven't stopped the disease last time", pointing to the exceptional cases where vaccination didn't lead to immunity, and using that as an argument against the effectiveness of vaccination. > Bullies need to be fought, not capitulated to So, which bullies are you fighting right now?
  - imgabe 8y ago
    > How about that when freedom is threatened, we should not be telling the enemy all our secrets? Who is talking about secrets? What I have been saying all along is that none of this information is particularly secret or sensitive. Your address is not a secret. Your employer or the fact that you have children is not a secret. Your religion is not a secret. Even Jews, who have more cause to be concerned than anyone, do not go to great lengths to hide their religion, nor should they. If anything, many outwardly wear markers of their religion in public, and why should they live in fear and hide as you would have them do? Instead of telling them to hide themselves, how about we stop people who would attack them for their religion? As you go about interacting with people in the public sphere, you will necessarily expose certain pieces of information about yourself. That is unavoidable. You want to live in a place where the government collects taxes and pays for roads and police and such? Well, then the government is going to need to know your address. You want to have public school for your kids? Well guess what, there's going to have to be a record somewhere that you have kids. You want to go to church in an easily accessible building in a public space and not in a secret underground bunker? Well, people are going to be able to see that you go to that church. Deal with it. Unless you want to live alone in the forest as a hermit, a certain amount of information-sharing is necessary to participate in society. The fact that that information can be collected and aggregated is also unavoidable. What happens next, the actions that particular people or groups take with that information, THAT is what is avoidable, and where our efforts should be concentrated. The fact that there is a database of people's addresses is not a problem. If there is a goon squad rounding up people at those address, the goon squad is the problem.

pmoriarty 8y ago

"Germany is not currently fascist, so clearly it is within the power of humans to reverse it." Germany as a whole is not ruled by fascists, but there are a significant number of neo-nazis, fascists, fascist sympathizers, bigots and racists in it. They've even done surprisingly well in some elections and control parts of the government. It's not inconceivable that some day there may be a Fourth Reich.

jacquesm 8y ago
It is almost as though there is a race on to see who will go into history as the next country to be embarrassed for decades. I'm surprised to see Germany in that list to begin with and it is a pity that there are still plenty of people who refuse to learn from history.