58 ms·

> Whether you attend religious services or not has been used to target (and kill) people in the past, and if you are willing to extrapolate a bit, was used for

by imgabe 8y ago

> Whether you attend religious services or not has been used to target (and kill) people in the past, and if you are willing to extrapolate a bit, was used for mass murder. Right, it was, long before the ability to aggregate this information en masse existed. The fundamental problem there is that there are people who want to kill other people because of their religion. Taking away information from them doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it a little. It's a form of security by obscurity. If anything, they can still go and target the actual place of worship itself, which is not hidden. If all they care about is killing people of a certain religion, they don't need to know who they are particularly, just go to the place of worship for that religion. The larger point here, is that if we can't trust the authority figures, the government, the corporations, etc. It doesn't matter how well we hide. The problem of a fascist government can't be solved by hiding. It has to be solved by enacting a government that's not fascist. Edit: This is not a "nothing to hide" argument. The information listed is not the sort that is private information. Your address is not a special secret that only you can know. There are numerous legitimate reasons that the government or a corporation might need to know your address. The government needs to collect taxes and keep property records. Companies need to deliver products that you order. All of that is going to require sharing your address.

Profan 8y ago
That went well for all the dutch jews in WW2 where the government also held detailed records about religious affiliation.. sometimes it is not about what is now, but what will or might be later.
- _jal 8y ago
  Exactly. People forget the role of IT ("data processing") at all of our peril. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II
- pdkl95 8y ago
  Using this[1] map created from the Dutch census data (which included religious affiliation), the Nazis were able to very efficiently send about 3/4 of the black dots on that map to be murdered in the camps. Collecting that census data probably seemed reasonable at the time. The new use case that needed a new way of aggre4gating and presenting the data happened later, almost as an emergent property. The only y to prevent problems that haven't been invented yet is to minimize the attack surface: if the records don't exist, they can't be misused. [1] https://www.verzetsmuseum.org/uploads/archive/museum/topstukken/stippenkaart_1633.jpg https://www.verzetsmuseum.org/uploads/archive/museum/topstuk...
jacquesm 8y ago
> Right, it was, long before the ability to aggregate this information en masse existed. No, it was not, please educate yourself: https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide/ https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide/ > The fundamental problem there is that there are people who want to kill other people because of their religion. Yes, that is the fundamental problem. And technology makes that much easier to achieve. Of course the religious idiots in Algeria murder people. As do the religious idiots in many other places. But they tend to be a lot less effective than what can be achieved when one harnesses the engines of progress: industrialization and automation. > Taking away information from them doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it a little. It's a form of security by obscurity. That is dangerously naive. No, it does not 'just delay it a little', it is the difference between mass genocide and a slow trickle. > If anything, they can still go and target the actual place of worship itself, which is not hidden. They can and they do, but this is not about any adversary, it is about all adversaries and that includes the ones who would have zero compunction about going after places of worship and everybody who visits them. Now, given a bit of tech and a place of worship you can target all those who ever went there long after the fact even if they decide to stay away from the place of worship because they are on to the would be murderers. > The larger point here, is that if we can't trust the authority figures, the government, the corporations, etc. It doesn't matter how well we hide. If not for the ability of people to hide other people the number of Jews today would be substantially smaller than it is. Really, again, go and educuate yourself. > The problem of a fascist government can't be solved by hiding. No, but individuals can stay alive by hiding. > It has to be solved by enacting a government that's not fascist. Unfortunately Fascist governments will happen every now and then, saying that they shouldn't is denying the fact that they will, several countries are on the path to Fascism today, whether they will get there or not is anybody's guess. But if they do, I guarantee you that all this tech will make the next pogrom a lot more effective than the previous one.
- imgabe 8y ago
  > Unfortunately Fascist governments will happen every now and then, saying that they shouldn't is denying the fact that they will, several countries are on the path to Fascism today, whether they will get there or not is anybody's guess. But if they do, I guarantee you that all this tech will make the next pogrom a lot more effective than the previous one. And, unfortunately, information such as what religion you are can and will be recorded. Even if it's just someone standing outside a place of worship and watching who goes in and out or the records of the church/synagogue/mosque etc itself. Saying that it shouldn't is just diverting resources into a futile attempt to stamp out information that cannot be contained. Fascist governments don't just "happen", they are not a force of nature like a hurricane or an earthquake. They are a result of conscious decisions by human beings, which are within our power to control.

by imgabe 8y ago

Profan 8y ago

That went well for all the dutch jews in WW2 where the government also held detailed records about religious affiliation.. sometimes it is not about what is now, but what will or might be later.

_jal 8y ago
Exactly. People forget the role of IT ("data processing") at all of our peril. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II
pdkl95 8y ago
Using this[1] map created from the Dutch census data (which included religious affiliation), the Nazis were able to very efficiently send about 3/4 of the black dots on that map to be murdered in the camps. Collecting that census data probably seemed reasonable at the time. The new use case that needed a new way of aggre4gating and presenting the data happened later, almost as an emergent property. The only y to prevent problems that haven't been invented yet is to minimize the attack surface: if the records don't exist, they can't be misused. [1] https://www.verzetsmuseum.org/uploads/archive/museum/topstukken/stippenkaart_1633.jpg https://www.verzetsmuseum.org/uploads/archive/museum/topstuk...

jacquesm 8y ago

> Right, it was, long before the ability to aggregate this information en masse existed. No, it was not, please educate yourself: https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide/ https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide/ > The fundamental problem there is that there are people who want to kill other people because of their religion. Yes, that is the fundamental problem. And technology makes that much easier to achieve. Of course the religious idiots in Algeria murder people. As do the religious idiots in many other places. But they tend to be a lot less effective than what can be achieved when one harnesses the engines of progress: industrialization and automation. > Taking away information from them doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it a little. It's a form of security by obscurity. That is dangerously naive. No, it does not 'just delay it a little', it is the difference between mass genocide and a slow trickle. > If anything, they can still go and target the actual place of worship itself, which is not hidden. They can and they do, but this is not about any adversary, it is about all adversaries and that includes the ones who would have zero compunction about going after places of worship and everybody who visits them. Now, given a bit of tech and a place of worship you can target all those who ever went there long after the fact even if they decide to stay away from the place of worship because they are on to the would be murderers. > The larger point here, is that if we can't trust the authority figures, the government, the corporations, etc. It doesn't matter how well we hide. If not for the ability of people to hide other people the number of Jews today would be substantially smaller than it is. Really, again, go and educuate yourself. > The problem of a fascist government can't be solved by hiding. No, but individuals can stay alive by hiding. > It has to be solved by enacting a government that's not fascist. Unfortunately Fascist governments will happen every now and then, saying that they shouldn't is denying the fact that they will, several countries are on the path to Fascism today, whether they will get there or not is anybody's guess. But if they do, I guarantee you that all this tech will make the next pogrom a lot more effective than the previous one.

imgabe 8y ago
> Unfortunately Fascist governments will happen every now and then, saying that they shouldn't is denying the fact that they will, several countries are on the path to Fascism today, whether they will get there or not is anybody's guess. But if they do, I guarantee you that all this tech will make the next pogrom a lot more effective than the previous one. And, unfortunately, information such as what religion you are can and will be recorded. Even if it's just someone standing outside a place of worship and watching who goes in and out or the records of the church/synagogue/mosque etc itself. Saying that it shouldn't is just diverting resources into a futile attempt to stamp out information that cannot be contained. Fascist governments don't just "happen", they are not a force of nature like a hurricane or an earthquake. They are a result of conscious decisions by human beings, which are within our power to control.