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I shouldn't have downvoted this. I apologize for that. This is something you believe in. Though, I think it's misguided. I think a lifetime of extreme sufferin

I shouldn't have downvoted this. I apologize for that. This is something you believe in. Though, I think it's misguided. I think a lifetime of extreme suffering would be worth it, just for the rare moments when you feel truly blessed to be alive. In the hardest times of my own life, there's been a few memories that have pushed me forwards. One of them was walking outside of a friends house after a light rainstorm, and seeing a ray of sun shine through water dripping off of a plant. It was just so simply beautiful. I saw a green sunset once. I saw the Perseid meteors on top of a mountain. This is before getting into all the triumphs and creation and science and business and trade and conversations and coffee and learning and teaching I've done. Life's magnificent. The suffering is a very worthwhile price to pay for it. Actually, I actively enjoy the suffering to some extent, because it makes me stronger and able to live more, live stronger, do more. Heck, I wrote an entry called "Give Me Strife and Suffering (but in manageable doses)" on my blog if you're interested in an alternative perspective - http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/?p=205 http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/?p=205 I reject the notion that suffering is a bad thing. It's bad if you don't know what you're suffering for. But suffering for worthy causes, for knowledge, for life, for creation, for art, for beauty, for things like that... I wouldn't trade it for the world. As my ability increases, I actively increase the amount of suffering I go through - to grow stronger, to do more, to be more, to serve more, to build more, to create more... I don't know. Have a think on that. I like suffering for what I believe in, so long as I'm doing it in an intelligent way that forces me to grow. I think it's a worthy thing, and actively chase it... and I think this attitude has served me well and helped me do a lot of great things. Perhaps it's a worthwhile frame of mind to experiment with for a while? You don't have to believe it, just ask, "If I accepted suffering for worthy causes, and came to enjoy the suffering, how would I feel and act here?" Try it for a week or two? You could always ditch that perspective if it doesn't suit you well.

koningrobot 16y ago
I don't believe for a second that you like suffering. Would you want to spend the rest of your life at the hands of a skilled torturer? I don't think so. Therefore, you don't like suffering. What you do like is a combination of suffering with benefits. You like suffering when it makes you stronger. I call bullshit and say you like becoming stronger, and you'd do away with the suffering if you at all could. And what good is the being stronger anyway? It serves only, maybe, to avoid or diminish future suffering. I'd go so far as to say that what you like is short-term suffering if, and because, it helps you avoid long-term suffering. You "like" the pain you feel when you put your hand on a hot stove because you can use it to know you are about to burn your hand. The pain helps you avoid more pain. How about if you could know you are about to burn your hand without feeling this pain? How about if you didn't need hands at all? You see my point? The benefit of "not burning your hand" is only a benefit because the alternative is worse. You can't win, you can only minimize your losses. Don't get me wrong; I like life most of the time, and I have had these "simply beautiful" experiences you describe. But that is no justification for forcing other people to live. Because that is what my comment, though unclear on this, was ultimately about: no more kids. For anyone. Ever. Once you are in life, you are guaranteed to suffer, and you need hands, and all this wisdom about not being able to have your cake and eat it too, learning to enjoy the simple things (i.e., be complacent), the world not owing you anything, et cetera. But these things are not relevant to the question of whether procreation is acceptable. I will consider your suggestion. I like to believe I already suffer my fair share for worthy causes, but I may be wrong.
- Oxryly 16y ago
  I don't think suffering by itself can really be enjoyed, but it can be a way to realize or learn things about yourself. Pain is a very subjective sensation, and severe pain can cause you to close up and recoil from or fear that sensation. But it can also be an opportunity for you to face the pain and feel it and all that in implies; it can bring up past suffering or traumatic incidences that bother you and in that context provide the opportunity to heal and move on. Suffering in many ways is getting closer to death, and death provides the opportunity to be begin anew. It's an abstract concept but can be applied to everything you encounter as a living being. In fact when you try to avoid suffering you close yourself off from so much experience. You could even say that to avoid suffering requires to live as a small subset of yourself, within a very confined sense of self. Expanding out from that will entail suffering but that's only a very small part of the story and it will lead to experiences you can't yet imagine.
  - koningrobot 16y ago
    Thanks sincerely for the advice, but I already know these things. As I said, they have no bearing on whether it is acceptable to create new persons.
    - Oxryly 16y ago
      Yep, I agree. That's a much bigger question.
- yters 16y ago
  I say let other people make the choice about living. Obviously lionhearted would not be happy if you limited his opportunity to live.
  - exit 16y ago
    unfortunately other people choosing life leads to people like me being born just the same. so i'm going to have to kill all of you.

koningrobot 16y ago

I don't believe for a second that you like suffering. Would you want to spend the rest of your life at the hands of a skilled torturer? I don't think so. Therefore, you don't like suffering. What you do like is a combination of suffering with benefits. You like suffering when it makes you stronger. I call bullshit and say you like becoming stronger, and you'd do away with the suffering if you at all could. And what good is the being stronger anyway? It serves only, maybe, to avoid or diminish future suffering. I'd go so far as to say that what you like is short-term suffering if, and because, it helps you avoid long-term suffering. You "like" the pain you feel when you put your hand on a hot stove because you can use it to know you are about to burn your hand. The pain helps you avoid more pain. How about if you could know you are about to burn your hand without feeling this pain? How about if you didn't need hands at all? You see my point? The benefit of "not burning your hand" is only a benefit because the alternative is worse. You can't win, you can only minimize your losses. Don't get me wrong; I like life most of the time, and I have had these "simply beautiful" experiences you describe. But that is no justification for forcing other people to live. Because that is what my comment, though unclear on this, was ultimately about: no more kids. For anyone. Ever. Once you are in life, you are guaranteed to suffer, and you need hands, and all this wisdom about not being able to have your cake and eat it too, learning to enjoy the simple things (i.e., be complacent), the world not owing you anything, et cetera. But these things are not relevant to the question of whether procreation is acceptable. I will consider your suggestion. I like to believe I already suffer my fair share for worthy causes, but I may be wrong.

Oxryly 16y ago
I don't think suffering by itself can really be enjoyed, but it can be a way to realize or learn things about yourself. Pain is a very subjective sensation, and severe pain can cause you to close up and recoil from or fear that sensation. But it can also be an opportunity for you to face the pain and feel it and all that in implies; it can bring up past suffering or traumatic incidences that bother you and in that context provide the opportunity to heal and move on. Suffering in many ways is getting closer to death, and death provides the opportunity to be begin anew. It's an abstract concept but can be applied to everything you encounter as a living being. In fact when you try to avoid suffering you close yourself off from so much experience. You could even say that to avoid suffering requires to live as a small subset of yourself, within a very confined sense of self. Expanding out from that will entail suffering but that's only a very small part of the story and it will lead to experiences you can't yet imagine.
- koningrobot 16y ago
  Thanks sincerely for the advice, but I already know these things. As I said, they have no bearing on whether it is acceptable to create new persons.
  - Oxryly 16y ago
    Yep, I agree. That's a much bigger question.
yters 16y ago
I say let other people make the choice about living. Obviously lionhearted would not be happy if you limited his opportunity to live.
- exit 16y ago
  unfortunately other people choosing life leads to people like me being born just the same. so i'm going to have to kill all of you.