5 ms·

No they shouldn't. If someone wants to work for free they should be able to. And forcing paid internships will reduce the number of internships available.

ForHackernews 8y ago
In industries with many unpaid internships, only the children of the wealthy can afford to work for free to establish themselves. This leads to those industries being (even more) dominated by the upper classes.
- moosey 8y ago
  I grew up quite poor, and that makes this a near-and-dear issue.
elcomet 8y ago
I don't agree at all. If you allow unpaid internship, then employers will abuse this for fields where there is a lot of unemployment. And jobless people will be forced to accept those internships because they can't find any other job due to lack of experience. Some slaves were ok to work for free and be owned by someone. Does it mean slavery should be authorized because some slaves are ok with it?
- somethingle234 8y ago
  There are a few things with this: 1. That could be true in only some areas. I doubt it's true for the technology sector where there are a lot of players competing. 2. Companies are already trying to pay as low as possible. If a company could pay $1 for a software engineer, it would. 3. It's absurd in its reasoning to distinguish between "unpaid" and $1 a month internship. So, a company hiring a $1-a-month intern is fine? If not, then what's the number? After asking this, then it'll be boiled down to supply-demand force in the market. This is back to number 2. If a company could pay $1, it would. Comparing unpaid internship with slaves is also absurd. For one thing, slaves can't walk away. I also don't think my volunteer job at an animal shelter is slavery.
- refurb 8y ago
  And if you ban unpaid internships, you’d likely have no intern positions at all. Which is better? Giving the choice of an unpaid internship or no choice at all?
  - threeseed 8y ago
    > And if you ban unpaid internships, you’d likely have no intern positions at all. Based on what evidence ? Let me guess. None.
    - ttoinou 8y ago
      Supply and demand ? There would certainly be less internships (not none though), so less opportunity for everyone. Some internship might get paid a little bit, that depends on the minimum internship wage, but that won't be true for all internships
  - anyfoo 8y ago
    Yes, a company that is not willing to pay their interns a salary (which is usually rather small), probably should not offer any internship positions at all. The only legitimate reason that comes to mind is that they actually cannot afford to pay the intern. In which case, they really should not offer any internship positions at all.
    - ttoinou 8y ago
      Or you could imagine that they don't have a cash flow yet, but they could offer training in exchange of salary. Why try to regulate a number ? Salaried jobs and internship are not only about money.
      - anyfoo 8y ago
        I don't think that a company that is so early that it does not even have enough cash flow yet to pay an intern is well equipped, and has much incentive, to train interns. I mean, seriously now. Do you think an executive in a company that's that new and/or that strapped for cash is going to sit there one day and think "You know what's on top of my mind right now? Training an intern, showing them the ropes, offering them some quality career experience!" My guess is that it's more along the lines of "Man, I really wish I had some cheap labor right now".
tedajax 8y ago
No, just no.
eat_veggies 8y ago
forcing paid jobs will reduce the number of jobs available. that is correct, yet totally not useful as a statement.
- ttoinou 8y ago
  The comment would be useless if a salaried job / internship was only about exchanging your workforce into money. It's not. It's about experience and real-world training. Learning by doing something useful, learning how to behave in the workplace, being introduced into a new industry etc. The employee might gain something else than money in the deal.
threeseed 8y ago
What if someone wants to get paid ? Well they can't because all of the other intern positions are only available for those to do it for free. So maybe don't act like interns have any real choice here.
- ttoinou 8y ago
  If they value more the money than the work itself (i.e. the experience they're going to gain from doing the internship), then they won't choose to do the internship. There is a choice, it's just that nobody controls internship wages, and you can't do anything about it, even less by regulating it..
seizethecheese 8y ago
I agree with this, despite the resistance it seems to be getting. There should be a very high bar for making illegal any activity between two consenting parties where there's no obvious and severe externalities. I don't see how this harms anyone outside of the intern/company, both of which should be free to make their own decisions.
- anyfoo 8y ago
  I could not have afforded my internships, had they been unpaid. A potentially less qualified person with more affluent parents maybe would have. As it is, those internships proved to be vital to my career, and I hope the company that I ended up with is happy that they paid me my internship salary in exchange for a later employee. But then again I went to a highly renowned university in Germany, which I also could not have afforded if it wasn't completely free. So, I was not free to make the decision to take unpaid internships.
  - ttoinou 8y ago
    The university was completely free for you because someone else paid for it. If you're not free to make the decision of internships how did you choose the company you went into ? Also, I guess the company and their managers, because they have a budget to respect, are not free either to make decision, by the same logic ?
    - anyfoo 8y ago
      > The university was completely free for you because someone else paid for it. Exactly, "everyone" did. And I probably already paid it back with my taxes already. And, one can dream, maybe in another way too, through the work I perform. Had university or my internships been very costly, it's not unfathomable that I would have a lower salary, in addition to performing lower-quality work (in terms of knowledge going into it).
      - ttoinou 8y ago
        There would be others way to monetize and fund education / scholarships. The money that you won't pay in taxes could go somewhere else. There could be more businesses trying to improve the education field, which would be very useful seeing what we learn in our currently heavily subsidized schools/universities.
chasing 8y ago
Nope. Unpaid workers depress the labor market when people who need to be paid to work have to compete against people working for free. That's one reason it's illegal.

ForHackernews 8y ago

In industries with many unpaid internships, only the children of the wealthy can afford to work for free to establish themselves. This leads to those industries being (even more) dominated by the upper classes.

moosey 8y ago
I grew up quite poor, and that makes this a near-and-dear issue.

elcomet 8y ago

I don't agree at all. If you allow unpaid internship, then employers will abuse this for fields where there is a lot of unemployment. And jobless people will be forced to accept those internships because they can't find any other job due to lack of experience. Some slaves were ok to work for free and be owned by someone. Does it mean slavery should be authorized because some slaves are ok with it?

somethingle234 8y ago
There are a few things with this: 1. That could be true in only some areas. I doubt it's true for the technology sector where there are a lot of players competing. 2. Companies are already trying to pay as low as possible. If a company could pay $1 for a software engineer, it would. 3. It's absurd in its reasoning to distinguish between "unpaid" and $1 a month internship. So, a company hiring a $1-a-month intern is fine? If not, then what's the number? After asking this, then it'll be boiled down to supply-demand force in the market. This is back to number 2. If a company could pay $1, it would. Comparing unpaid internship with slaves is also absurd. For one thing, slaves can't walk away. I also don't think my volunteer job at an animal shelter is slavery.
refurb 8y ago
And if you ban unpaid internships, you’d likely have no intern positions at all. Which is better? Giving the choice of an unpaid internship or no choice at all?
- threeseed 8y ago
  > And if you ban unpaid internships, you’d likely have no intern positions at all. Based on what evidence ? Let me guess. None.
  - ttoinou 8y ago
    Supply and demand ? There would certainly be less internships (not none though), so less opportunity for everyone. Some internship might get paid a little bit, that depends on the minimum internship wage, but that won't be true for all internships
- anyfoo 8y ago
  Yes, a company that is not willing to pay their interns a salary (which is usually rather small), probably should not offer any internship positions at all. The only legitimate reason that comes to mind is that they actually cannot afford to pay the intern. In which case, they really should not offer any internship positions at all.
  - ttoinou 8y ago
    Or you could imagine that they don't have a cash flow yet, but they could offer training in exchange of salary. Why try to regulate a number ? Salaried jobs and internship are not only about money.
    - anyfoo 8y ago
      I don't think that a company that is so early that it does not even have enough cash flow yet to pay an intern is well equipped, and has much incentive, to train interns. I mean, seriously now. Do you think an executive in a company that's that new and/or that strapped for cash is going to sit there one day and think "You know what's on top of my mind right now? Training an intern, showing them the ropes, offering them some quality career experience!" My guess is that it's more along the lines of "Man, I really wish I had some cheap labor right now".

tedajax 8y ago

No, just no.

eat_veggies 8y ago

forcing paid jobs will reduce the number of jobs available. that is correct, yet totally not useful as a statement.

ttoinou 8y ago
The comment would be useless if a salaried job / internship was only about exchanging your workforce into money. It's not. It's about experience and real-world training. Learning by doing something useful, learning how to behave in the workplace, being introduced into a new industry etc. The employee might gain something else than money in the deal.

threeseed 8y ago

What if someone wants to get paid ? Well they can't because all of the other intern positions are only available for those to do it for free. So maybe don't act like interns have any real choice here.

ttoinou 8y ago
If they value more the money than the work itself (i.e. the experience they're going to gain from doing the internship), then they won't choose to do the internship. There is a choice, it's just that nobody controls internship wages, and you can't do anything about it, even less by regulating it..

seizethecheese 8y ago

I agree with this, despite the resistance it seems to be getting. There should be a very high bar for making illegal any activity between two consenting parties where there's no obvious and severe externalities. I don't see how this harms anyone outside of the intern/company, both of which should be free to make their own decisions.

anyfoo 8y ago
I could not have afforded my internships, had they been unpaid. A potentially less qualified person with more affluent parents maybe would have. As it is, those internships proved to be vital to my career, and I hope the company that I ended up with is happy that they paid me my internship salary in exchange for a later employee. But then again I went to a highly renowned university in Germany, which I also could not have afforded if it wasn't completely free. So, I was not free to make the decision to take unpaid internships.
- ttoinou 8y ago
  The university was completely free for you because someone else paid for it. If you're not free to make the decision of internships how did you choose the company you went into ? Also, I guess the company and their managers, because they have a budget to respect, are not free either to make decision, by the same logic ?
  - anyfoo 8y ago
    > The university was completely free for you because someone else paid for it. Exactly, "everyone" did. And I probably already paid it back with my taxes already. And, one can dream, maybe in another way too, through the work I perform. Had university or my internships been very costly, it's not unfathomable that I would have a lower salary, in addition to performing lower-quality work (in terms of knowledge going into it).
    - ttoinou 8y ago
      There would be others way to monetize and fund education / scholarships. The money that you won't pay in taxes could go somewhere else. There could be more businesses trying to improve the education field, which would be very useful seeing what we learn in our currently heavily subsidized schools/universities.

chasing 8y ago

Nope. Unpaid workers depress the labor market when people who need to be paid to work have to compete against people working for free. That's one reason it's illegal.