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To be human is the ability to defy our instincts. From the simplistic "I choose not to eat", to the extraordinary "I choose to end my life." I strongly believ

To be human is the ability to defy our instincts. From the simplistic "I choose not to eat", to the extraordinary "I choose to end my life." I strongly believe that suicide is only a cultural taboo, and thus it is 'safe' to label it as a mental illness. I have struggled with wanting to end my life for 35+ years. "Talking about it" does not work. Medication/Meditation/Mediation has not helped. To put it simply; I do not wish to exist. I tried to kill myself once. [Dammit i suck at everything! /joke] Not a single day goes by where I don't think about doing it again. I regret failing. And yet I get up and go to work every day. There is a momentum to living. It is just a habit. I take no pleasure from my hobbies. I no longer have solace within peace and quiet. I am unable to escape in the written word. If I could end my life and know my family would be cared for financially I would in a heartbeat. My obligations keep me alive, and it is a torture. I am surrounded by people who love me, and would be devastated by my death. As near as I can tell, this is the meaning of life; and I want it to end.

umvi 8y ago
I believe there is still hope for you to enjoy life and experience joy again. I'll stop short of recommending things to try since I'm assuming you've tried it all already, but you never know what the future will hold.
- Razengan 8y ago
  I am sure that most people who expound the joys of life when talking someone down from suicide, mean well, but I feel they're mostly trying to convince their own selves that life is always worth living.
  - elwell 8y ago
    That could well be the case sometimes, I personally disagree though. I genuinely am full of joy most days. For me, I attribute this to every step I take against my habit of walking away from God, and especially the manifestation/experience of God's love in my relationship with my wife. So if I attest to that, it's an appeal to truth for the sake of someone else, not because I'm struggling to believe. Though even if that were the motivator, it seems like a healthy enough mechanism of society.
    - c22 8y ago
      I have a slightly different take on this. I also experience joy most days these days but God has nothing to do with it. Rather, I manufacture this joy from within myself through sheer force of will, simply because I find living this way more pleasant than the alternative. I wasn't always able to do this, I believe it is a skill that grows stronger with practice. It is a matter of both shifting perspective and (re)structuring one's life/environment to support joyous moments.
- chris_wot 8y ago
  After I felt suicidal, I was abused by people in Liverpool hospital in NSW. Three years later and I still feel suicidal at times, and I have not for a single day felt or experienced joy. Literally every day since then I have felt anger, shame and depression at what happened to me. I don't sleep well (I get nightmares), and nothing (and I mean nothing) is helping - not exercise, medicine, family, therapy, friendship - nothing.
  - UI_at_80x24 8y ago
    Fuck, that is shitty. I really wish that hadn't happened to you.
  - pdfernhout 8y ago
    Maybe of interest: "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma" by Bessel A. van der Kolk https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748 https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/01... "Renowned trauma expert Bessel van der Kolk has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body Keeps the Score, he transforms our understanding of traumatic stress, revealing how it literally rearranges the brain’s wiring—specifically areas dedicated to pleasure, engagement, control, and trust. He shows how these areas can be reactivated through innovative treatments including neurofeedback, mindfulness techniques, play, yoga, and other therapies. Based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The Body Keeps the Score offers proven alternatives to drugs and talk therapy—and a way to reclaim lives." A lot of it is historical, so you might want to skip to the sections on treatments like EMDR. The author shows how nightmares are the brains attempts to process what happened and has suggestions for moving past them. While Bessel van der Kolk practices in the USA, perhaps you could contact him (or the group he works through) and see if he or they can suggest an informed and compassionate practitioner in your country? Bessel van der Kolk and his associates can be reached here: http://www.traumacenter.org/ http://www.traumacenter.org/ An interview with him: https://onbeing.org/programs/bessel-van-der-kolk-how-trauma-lodges-in-the-body-mar2017/ https://onbeing.org/programs/bessel-van-der-kolk-how-trauma-... You may also find this book of interest too: "Out of the Nightmare: Recovery from Depression and Suicidal Pain" by David Conroy https://www.amazon.com/Out-Nightmare-Recovery-Depression-Suicidal/dp/0595414974/ https://www.amazon.com/Out-Nightmare-Recovery-Depression-Sui... A key point David Conroy makes is that all too often when people reach out for help with pain exceeding their coping resources (and so leading to suicidal thoughts) that the people they turn may just heap more pain on top of everything, which sounds like what happened to you. But it does not always have to been like that and David Conroy explores alternatives in his book. And you might also want to look into "The Lifestyle Cure" which has a fairly high cure rate for depression using a combination of omega-3s, sunlight & vitamin D, exercise, social interactions, mental habits to avoid negative ruminations, and improved sleep: https://tlc.ku.edu/ https://tlc.ku.edu/ But if it is past trauma that is causing the worst issues, addressing that first might help get you on an upward spiral and then you could try those other ideas to continue towards greater wellness. Hope this helps.
oliveshell 8y ago
As someone with moderate to severe ADHD, I can empathize with the sense of feeling utterly trapped by mundane responsibilities. As you say, the human condition is shaped by our ability to make choices that defy instinct, and making the choice to keep going-- when you'd rather not exist-- is a display of immense mental fortitude. I admire the hell out of you for persevering.
- UI_at_80x24 8y ago
  Thanks for saying that.
elwell 8y ago
Sorry to hear that. Since you didn't list it and out of curiosity, have you given religion a try?
- UI_at_80x24 8y ago
  I am tired of 'being nice' in life. So you, dear anonymous internet stranger will bear the brunt of my retort. >have you given religion a try? I don't believe in imaginary people. Organized religion is one of the worst things our species has come up with and is nothing more then a method to exert control over a population. So please go away.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - elwell 8y ago
    > I am tired of 'being nice' in life. So you, dear anonymous internet stranger will bear the brunt of my retort. If we expect to make any progress, we have to be brutally honest. So thank you. > I don't believe in imaginary people. OK, of course I don't either. (I feel like you gave "strawman" argument) > Organized religion is one of the worst things our species has come up with I agree as much as I can with a blanket statement like that. However, the message of Jesus seems pretty different: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” > is nothing more then a method to exert control over a population Again, that may be true of some religions or sects, but the message of Jesus would probably be the opposite of that. I mean, the Roman empire tried to destroy the followers of Jesus because their "Way" threatened the organization and control of their empire. After "Christianity" became institutionalized and part of the government it seems to have strayed from much of Jesus' actual teachings. > So please go away. If you're sure that's what you want, then I can unwillingly (doubt it or not: I care) oblige. But I would still feel obligated to respond to any further comments, since this is a public forum.
    - 8y ago
chiefalchemist 8y ago
> "There is a momentum to living. It is just a habit." The truth and simplicity is undeniable. Take away the routine - and its why there are so many routine routines - and my sense is nearly everyone would end up in a twisted game of chicken with the void, with the absurdity. So get there and finally decide to opt out. Sad in a way, but none the less quite brave.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
There is a lot of suffering in life, there's no denying that. You ever play "Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy?", it's an interesting game and one of my favorites to talk about. See, you play as a man with his bottom half in a cauldron who's only means of locomotion is swinging a sledgehammer. Your goal is to climb a mountain of random garbage. It's an intentionally difficult game. You're constantly faced with frustration. You'll spend long periods of time trying to work your way just a few more feet up the mountain, then fall and find yourself back near the beginning of the game. Again. You repeat this over and over, with Bennett's narration helpfully reminding you that he'll save all of your progress for you, including your mistakes. Speaking of Bennett, he'll provide you with some interesting thoughts about culture and our relationship with frustration along the way, but also he spends time subtly ribbing you whenever you fall. It took me 11 hours to climb that damn mountain. The average for people who don't quit is 5. I think it is very illuminating on the nature of suffering and life. The mountaintop is your goal. No one is making you do it, you chose it by playing the game, and no one worth speaking of will judge you for quitting. It will probably seem impossible, and in fact it may even be impossible for any given player. Every setback, every failure, every time you drop and end up back in The Pit of Despair will hurt. You'll rage, you'll sigh, you'll swear the death of Bennett Foddy, and you might even cry a little. You'll certainly think about quitting. A lot. But if you keep playing you'll notice the strangest thing: every time you fall, you get a little better at getting back up. When you're young, you kinda hate your parents, and you probably think they hate you too. They're the ones who make you go to bed early, do your homework and chores, eat your vegetables, etc. And they're the ones who punish you when they feel your behavior needs correction. Later on in life, you'll probably come to realize that all those things were good for you and made you a better person. Well ideally anyway, nobody is perfect, not even parents. The point is that even though you thought they made you suffer because they hated you, it turns out that the opposite is true. Bennett made the game to hurt you, but not because he hates you. And it is kinda the same with life. Suffering is an inescapable part of the process of growing. That life is full of suffering doesn't mean that it hates you. A funny thing happened when I finally reached the top of Bennett's mountain. First there was the immense relief, then the surprising reward for my efforts, and of course a celebratory beer. Then I started the game up again to see if I could do it faster. Over months I eventually got my time down to about 7 minutes and climbed that mountain 200 times. Why did I do that? I think of all the players who quit, and how they must think they'd be happy just to reach the top. It turns out happiness doesn't work that way. There are always new challenges, new goals that we drive ourselves towards, more frustration, more suffering, more growth. Would we really want it any other way? I am not speaking as a man of great successes, who's perspective may be skewed by that. I'm speaking as a man who has never found love and no longer expects to, who never shipped a product he was proud of, who doesn't make six figures, isn't the boss of anyone, hasn't traveled the world, and isn't recognized as an expert in any field. I don't need my whole hand to count my friends. I am a failure by many common metrics, but maybe success isn't really what we're about anyway? Now, you're probably wondering why I'm talking about a computer game, and the truth is it's because I'm not the guy who's going to tell you that you shouldn't kill yourself, or that life is really great, or any of that stuff we both know is crap. I've taken the drugs, talked to the psychologists, cried in the shower, begged to just die in my sleep, spent long periods of time doing and feeling nothing, and mentally tallied all the ways I could end myself with just what was around me. I'm not going to tell you that I can help you, or even that I know what you're going though. But I can tell you a story about a game, and the meaning I found in it, and maybe somebody reading this can find some meaning too.
AndrewKemendo 8y ago
I've gotten to the point where I look at suicide as a reasonable option like any other choice I would make. However that doesn't mean I'm suicidal - simply that I've taken the philosophical gravity from the concept. That, given what I've been through, I know that it's something that I can do at anytime I want. Strangely enough that makes me feel less trapped in my life, and way more intentional about what I do. Not that I don't waste a lot of time (mostly here), but that I try and be fully engaged with whatever I'm working on and am completely honest about all those habits and responsibilities. It also means I'm constantly evaluating if what I'm doing is supporting my long term goals. What I realized is that nobody wants to feel like they are a burden. If you tell your family that they feel like a burden, I would guess they will get out of your way and you'll be able to create an intentional relationship - but then, I don't know your family. As Camus said: There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide.
pdfernhout 8y ago
You might want to look into "The Lifestyle Cure" which has a fairly high cure rate for depression using a combination of omega-3s, sunlight & vitamin D, exercise, social interactions, mental habits to avoid negative ruminations, and improved sleep: https://tlc.ku.edu/ https://tlc.ku.edu/ From the author: "We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, sleep-deprived, socially-isolated, fast-food-laden, frenetic pace of modern life. (Stephen Ilardi, PhD)" Dr. Ilardi has written a self-help book based on the elements of TLC, "The Depression Cure: The 6-Step Program to Beat Depression without Drugs". The book has an example of a guy who suffered depression for about forty years and within a few weeks moved beyond depression following this approach (much to his own surprise). In another comment to this topic I mention this book and various other resources: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/134266.Out_of_the_Nightmare https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/134266.Out_of_the_Nightm... ""Out of the Nightmare" presents a no-fault theory about depression and suicide. It argues that we should not blame the victim, the family, the caregivers, or society in general. It provides a detailed analysis of each of the barriers that stand between suicidal pain and recovery, and provides those who suffer from depression with hundreds of resources to find their way out of the nightmare. Recovery from depression is decomposed into recovery from envy, shame, self-pity, grandiosity, fear, stigma, prejudice, and the vicious circles of suicidal pain. The book helps sufferers find lasting relief from internalized negative self-judgments." The key point there is to see suicide as an involuntary action that happens when pain exceeds coping resources. It is often possible to reduce pain (whether physical, emotional, or social). It is also often possible to increase coping resources of various sorts -- and different ones work for different people. You mention a sense of obligation to your loved ones which is a coping resources of a sort. So is momentum of routine habits, which in a way are another coping resource. So, perhaps you might be able to build out from those -- perhaps to help others more directly and to develop new lifestyle habits to improve mood (like in the TLC approach)? The book also suggests taking the time (ideally within therapy or consultation with some caring person) to outline all the hundreds of painful things that contribute to your depression (even events from the distant past) and then working towards improving the most approachable pains that are easiest to fix (e.g. an uncomfortable chair, a toothache, a specific negative self-judgement, a strained relationship, etc.) to make some positive progress. All easier said than done of course to get started, but a little positive progress may then lead to an upward spiral of other positive progress and so on. While it may be impossible to improve every painful situation in your life, if you can at least reduce several pains in your life, that reduces the impulse towards suicide. Another book is aptly named "The Upward Spiral: Using Neuroscience to Reverse the Course of Depression" covers some of the same ground: https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-upward-spiral-using-neuroscience-to-reverse-the-course-of-depression/ https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-upward-spiral-using-neurosc... "After he describes the downward spiral, Korb helps us start moving in the other direction. He encourages readers to take small steps, since any change, no matter how tiny it seems, can have big effects. Making small, even somewhat trivial decisions when we are indecisive can help us feel productive, he writes, and is one step in the process of reversing depression. In addition to setting goals and making decisions, Korb advocates getting adequate rest, exercising, and developing positive habits. Most of his advice seems straightforward, but what surprised me was his emphasis on gratitude. Research suggests that opening a so-called gratitude circuit can have great positive effects on our brain. It not only decreases symptoms of depression, but also improves physical health, improves sleep, and boosts serotonin. Gratitude also plays a role in the production of dopamine, Korb explains, the neurotransmitter that increases enjoyment. And so, by activating our gratitude circuit, it’s easier for us to feel positive emotions." And here is a more radical idea (YMMV, so just for leading-edge background, not necessarily recommending): https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/ https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/ "So began what grew into a two-year journey into the world of psychedelics—LSD, psilocybin, Ayahuasca and 5-MeO-DMT. The book explores the renaissance of scientific research into these compounds and their potential to relieve several kinds of mental suffering, including depression, anxiety, and addiction. It also delves into the rich history of psychedelics in America, tracing the promise of the early research in the fifties and how a moral panic about LSD in the mid-sixties led to decades of suppression, just now ending. I spend time with neuroscientists who are using psychedelics in conjunction with modern brain imaging technologies to probe the mysteries of consciousness and the self. Several of the scientists I profile are convinced psychedelics could revolutionize mental healthcare and our understanding of the mind." Also, for any typical HN poster (maybe not you), looking into whether Asperger's syndrome affects your life and relationships may also be enlightening as Asperger's is associated with lifelong anxiety and depression from social anxiety as well as about a 10X higher than typical rate of suicidal ideation... https://psychcentral.com/news/2014/10/13/suicidal-thoughts-10-times-more-likely-in-adults-with-aspergers/76016.html https://psychcentral.com/news/2014/10/13/suicidal-thoughts-1... I list more coping resource here including about Asperger's on the job among many other job-related issues: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations-Reading-List https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations... All the best in finding ways to reduce your pain and increase your coping resources that work for you in your specific situation.

umvi 8y ago

I believe there is still hope for you to enjoy life and experience joy again. I'll stop short of recommending things to try since I'm assuming you've tried it all already, but you never know what the future will hold.

Razengan 8y ago
I am sure that most people who expound the joys of life when talking someone down from suicide, mean well, but I feel they're mostly trying to convince their own selves that life is always worth living.
- elwell 8y ago
  That could well be the case sometimes, I personally disagree though. I genuinely am full of joy most days. For me, I attribute this to every step I take against my habit of walking away from God, and especially the manifestation/experience of God's love in my relationship with my wife. So if I attest to that, it's an appeal to truth for the sake of someone else, not because I'm struggling to believe. Though even if that were the motivator, it seems like a healthy enough mechanism of society.
  - c22 8y ago
    I have a slightly different take on this. I also experience joy most days these days but God has nothing to do with it. Rather, I manufacture this joy from within myself through sheer force of will, simply because I find living this way more pleasant than the alternative. I wasn't always able to do this, I believe it is a skill that grows stronger with practice. It is a matter of both shifting perspective and (re)structuring one's life/environment to support joyous moments.
chris_wot 8y ago
After I felt suicidal, I was abused by people in Liverpool hospital in NSW. Three years later and I still feel suicidal at times, and I have not for a single day felt or experienced joy. Literally every day since then I have felt anger, shame and depression at what happened to me. I don't sleep well (I get nightmares), and nothing (and I mean nothing) is helping - not exercise, medicine, family, therapy, friendship - nothing.
- UI_at_80x24 8y ago
  Fuck, that is shitty. I really wish that hadn't happened to you.
- pdfernhout 8y ago
  Maybe of interest: "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma" by Bessel A. van der Kolk https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748 https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/01... "Renowned trauma expert Bessel van der Kolk has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body Keeps the Score, he transforms our understanding of traumatic stress, revealing how it literally rearranges the brain’s wiring—specifically areas dedicated to pleasure, engagement, control, and trust. He shows how these areas can be reactivated through innovative treatments including neurofeedback, mindfulness techniques, play, yoga, and other therapies. Based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The Body Keeps the Score offers proven alternatives to drugs and talk therapy—and a way to reclaim lives." A lot of it is historical, so you might want to skip to the sections on treatments like EMDR. The author shows how nightmares are the brains attempts to process what happened and has suggestions for moving past them. While Bessel van der Kolk practices in the USA, perhaps you could contact him (or the group he works through) and see if he or they can suggest an informed and compassionate practitioner in your country? Bessel van der Kolk and his associates can be reached here: http://www.traumacenter.org/ http://www.traumacenter.org/ An interview with him: https://onbeing.org/programs/bessel-van-der-kolk-how-trauma-lodges-in-the-body-mar2017/ https://onbeing.org/programs/bessel-van-der-kolk-how-trauma-... You may also find this book of interest too: "Out of the Nightmare: Recovery from Depression and Suicidal Pain" by David Conroy https://www.amazon.com/Out-Nightmare-Recovery-Depression-Suicidal/dp/0595414974/ https://www.amazon.com/Out-Nightmare-Recovery-Depression-Sui... A key point David Conroy makes is that all too often when people reach out for help with pain exceeding their coping resources (and so leading to suicidal thoughts) that the people they turn may just heap more pain on top of everything, which sounds like what happened to you. But it does not always have to been like that and David Conroy explores alternatives in his book. And you might also want to look into "The Lifestyle Cure" which has a fairly high cure rate for depression using a combination of omega-3s, sunlight & vitamin D, exercise, social interactions, mental habits to avoid negative ruminations, and improved sleep: https://tlc.ku.edu/ https://tlc.ku.edu/ But if it is past trauma that is causing the worst issues, addressing that first might help get you on an upward spiral and then you could try those other ideas to continue towards greater wellness. Hope this helps.

oliveshell 8y ago

As someone with moderate to severe ADHD, I can empathize with the sense of feeling utterly trapped by mundane responsibilities. As you say, the human condition is shaped by our ability to make choices that defy instinct, and making the choice to keep going-- when you'd rather not exist-- is a display of immense mental fortitude. I admire the hell out of you for persevering.

UI_at_80x24 8y ago
Thanks for saying that.

elwell 8y ago

Sorry to hear that. Since you didn't list it and out of curiosity, have you given religion a try?

UI_at_80x24 8y ago
I am tired of 'being nice' in life. So you, dear anonymous internet stranger will bear the brunt of my retort. >have you given religion a try? I don't believe in imaginary people. Organized religion is one of the worst things our species has come up with and is nothing more then a method to exert control over a population. So please go away.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- elwell 8y ago
  > I am tired of 'being nice' in life. So you, dear anonymous internet stranger will bear the brunt of my retort. If we expect to make any progress, we have to be brutally honest. So thank you. > I don't believe in imaginary people. OK, of course I don't either. (I feel like you gave "strawman" argument) > Organized religion is one of the worst things our species has come up with I agree as much as I can with a blanket statement like that. However, the message of Jesus seems pretty different: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” > is nothing more then a method to exert control over a population Again, that may be true of some religions or sects, but the message of Jesus would probably be the opposite of that. I mean, the Roman empire tried to destroy the followers of Jesus because their "Way" threatened the organization and control of their empire. After "Christianity" became institutionalized and part of the government it seems to have strayed from much of Jesus' actual teachings. > So please go away. If you're sure that's what you want, then I can unwillingly (doubt it or not: I care) oblige. But I would still feel obligated to respond to any further comments, since this is a public forum.
  - 8y ago

chiefalchemist 8y ago

> "There is a momentum to living. It is just a habit." The truth and simplicity is undeniable. Take away the routine - and its why there are so many routine routines - and my sense is nearly everyone would end up in a twisted game of chicken with the void, with the absurdity. So get there and finally decide to opt out. Sad in a way, but none the less quite brave.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

There is a lot of suffering in life, there's no denying that. You ever play "Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy?", it's an interesting game and one of my favorites to talk about. See, you play as a man with his bottom half in a cauldron who's only means of locomotion is swinging a sledgehammer. Your goal is to climb a mountain of random garbage. It's an intentionally difficult game. You're constantly faced with frustration. You'll spend long periods of time trying to work your way just a few more feet up the mountain, then fall and find yourself back near the beginning of the game. Again. You repeat this over and over, with Bennett's narration helpfully reminding you that he'll save all of your progress for you, including your mistakes. Speaking of Bennett, he'll provide you with some interesting thoughts about culture and our relationship with frustration along the way, but also he spends time subtly ribbing you whenever you fall. It took me 11 hours to climb that damn mountain. The average for people who don't quit is 5. I think it is very illuminating on the nature of suffering and life. The mountaintop is your goal. No one is making you do it, you chose it by playing the game, and no one worth speaking of will judge you for quitting. It will probably seem impossible, and in fact it may even be impossible for any given player. Every setback, every failure, every time you drop and end up back in The Pit of Despair will hurt. You'll rage, you'll sigh, you'll swear the death of Bennett Foddy, and you might even cry a little. You'll certainly think about quitting. A lot. But if you keep playing you'll notice the strangest thing: every time you fall, you get a little better at getting back up. When you're young, you kinda hate your parents, and you probably think they hate you too. They're the ones who make you go to bed early, do your homework and chores, eat your vegetables, etc. And they're the ones who punish you when they feel your behavior needs correction. Later on in life, you'll probably come to realize that all those things were good for you and made you a better person. Well ideally anyway, nobody is perfect, not even parents. The point is that even though you thought they made you suffer because they hated you, it turns out that the opposite is true. Bennett made the game to hurt you, but not because he hates you. And it is kinda the same with life. Suffering is an inescapable part of the process of growing. That life is full of suffering doesn't mean that it hates you. A funny thing happened when I finally reached the top of Bennett's mountain. First there was the immense relief, then the surprising reward for my efforts, and of course a celebratory beer. Then I started the game up again to see if I could do it faster. Over months I eventually got my time down to about 7 minutes and climbed that mountain 200 times. Why did I do that? I think of all the players who quit, and how they must think they'd be happy just to reach the top. It turns out happiness doesn't work that way. There are always new challenges, new goals that we drive ourselves towards, more frustration, more suffering, more growth. Would we really want it any other way? I am not speaking as a man of great successes, who's perspective may be skewed by that. I'm speaking as a man who has never found love and no longer expects to, who never shipped a product he was proud of, who doesn't make six figures, isn't the boss of anyone, hasn't traveled the world, and isn't recognized as an expert in any field. I don't need my whole hand to count my friends. I am a failure by many common metrics, but maybe success isn't really what we're about anyway? Now, you're probably wondering why I'm talking about a computer game, and the truth is it's because I'm not the guy who's going to tell you that you shouldn't kill yourself, or that life is really great, or any of that stuff we both know is crap. I've taken the drugs, talked to the psychologists, cried in the shower, begged to just die in my sleep, spent long periods of time doing and feeling nothing, and mentally tallied all the ways I could end myself with just what was around me. I'm not going to tell you that I can help you, or even that I know what you're going though. But I can tell you a story about a game, and the meaning I found in it, and maybe somebody reading this can find some meaning too.

AndrewKemendo 8y ago

I've gotten to the point where I look at suicide as a reasonable option like any other choice I would make. However that doesn't mean I'm suicidal - simply that I've taken the philosophical gravity from the concept. That, given what I've been through, I know that it's something that I can do at anytime I want. Strangely enough that makes me feel less trapped in my life, and way more intentional about what I do. Not that I don't waste a lot of time (mostly here), but that I try and be fully engaged with whatever I'm working on and am completely honest about all those habits and responsibilities. It also means I'm constantly evaluating if what I'm doing is supporting my long term goals. What I realized is that nobody wants to feel like they are a burden. If you tell your family that they feel like a burden, I would guess they will get out of your way and you'll be able to create an intentional relationship - but then, I don't know your family. As Camus said: There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide.

pdfernhout 8y ago

You might want to look into "The Lifestyle Cure" which has a fairly high cure rate for depression using a combination of omega-3s, sunlight & vitamin D, exercise, social interactions, mental habits to avoid negative ruminations, and improved sleep: https://tlc.ku.edu/ https://tlc.ku.edu/ From the author: "We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, sleep-deprived, socially-isolated, fast-food-laden, frenetic pace of modern life. (Stephen Ilardi, PhD)" Dr. Ilardi has written a self-help book based on the elements of TLC, "The Depression Cure: The 6-Step Program to Beat Depression without Drugs". The book has an example of a guy who suffered depression for about forty years and within a few weeks moved beyond depression following this approach (much to his own surprise). In another comment to this topic I mention this book and various other resources: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/134266.Out_of_the_Nightmare https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/134266.Out_of_the_Nightm... ""Out of the Nightmare" presents a no-fault theory about depression and suicide. It argues that we should not blame the victim, the family, the caregivers, or society in general. It provides a detailed analysis of each of the barriers that stand between suicidal pain and recovery, and provides those who suffer from depression with hundreds of resources to find their way out of the nightmare. Recovery from depression is decomposed into recovery from envy, shame, self-pity, grandiosity, fear, stigma, prejudice, and the vicious circles of suicidal pain. The book helps sufferers find lasting relief from internalized negative self-judgments." The key point there is to see suicide as an involuntary action that happens when pain exceeds coping resources. It is often possible to reduce pain (whether physical, emotional, or social). It is also often possible to increase coping resources of various sorts -- and different ones work for different people. You mention a sense of obligation to your loved ones which is a coping resources of a sort. So is momentum of routine habits, which in a way are another coping resource. So, perhaps you might be able to build out from those -- perhaps to help others more directly and to develop new lifestyle habits to improve mood (like in the TLC approach)? The book also suggests taking the time (ideally within therapy or consultation with some caring person) to outline all the hundreds of painful things that contribute to your depression (even events from the distant past) and then working towards improving the most approachable pains that are easiest to fix (e.g. an uncomfortable chair, a toothache, a specific negative self-judgement, a strained relationship, etc.) to make some positive progress. All easier said than done of course to get started, but a little positive progress may then lead to an upward spiral of other positive progress and so on. While it may be impossible to improve every painful situation in your life, if you can at least reduce several pains in your life, that reduces the impulse towards suicide. Another book is aptly named "The Upward Spiral: Using Neuroscience to Reverse the Course of Depression" covers some of the same ground: https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-upward-spiral-using-neuroscience-to-reverse-the-course-of-depression/ https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-upward-spiral-using-neurosc... "After he describes the downward spiral, Korb helps us start moving in the other direction. He encourages readers to take small steps, since any change, no matter how tiny it seems, can have big effects. Making small, even somewhat trivial decisions when we are indecisive can help us feel productive, he writes, and is one step in the process of reversing depression. In addition to setting goals and making decisions, Korb advocates getting adequate rest, exercising, and developing positive habits. Most of his advice seems straightforward, but what surprised me was his emphasis on gratitude. Research suggests that opening a so-called gratitude circuit can have great positive effects on our brain. It not only decreases symptoms of depression, but also improves physical health, improves sleep, and boosts serotonin. Gratitude also plays a role in the production of dopamine, Korb explains, the neurotransmitter that increases enjoyment. And so, by activating our gratitude circuit, it’s easier for us to feel positive emotions." And here is a more radical idea (YMMV, so just for leading-edge background, not necessarily recommending): https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/ https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/ "So began what grew into a two-year journey into the world of psychedelics—LSD, psilocybin, Ayahuasca and 5-MeO-DMT. The book explores the renaissance of scientific research into these compounds and their potential to relieve several kinds of mental suffering, including depression, anxiety, and addiction. It also delves into the rich history of psychedelics in America, tracing the promise of the early research in the fifties and how a moral panic about LSD in the mid-sixties led to decades of suppression, just now ending. I spend time with neuroscientists who are using psychedelics in conjunction with modern brain imaging technologies to probe the mysteries of consciousness and the self. Several of the scientists I profile are convinced psychedelics could revolutionize mental healthcare and our understanding of the mind." Also, for any typical HN poster (maybe not you), looking into whether Asperger's syndrome affects your life and relationships may also be enlightening as Asperger's is associated with lifelong anxiety and depression from social anxiety as well as about a 10X higher than typical rate of suicidal ideation... https://psychcentral.com/news/2014/10/13/suicidal-thoughts-10-times-more-likely-in-adults-with-aspergers/76016.html https://psychcentral.com/news/2014/10/13/suicidal-thoughts-1... I list more coping resource here including about Asperger's on the job among many other job-related issues: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations-Reading-List https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations... All the best in finding ways to reduce your pain and increase your coping resources that work for you in your specific situation.