4 ms·

I don’t know the norm of the author’s specific field but I had the same reaction: His publication record is not even in the ballpark of where it probably should

I don’t know the norm of the author’s specific field but I had the same reaction: His publication record is not even in the ballpark of where it probably should be for tenure. I feel so sad that the scientific industry is set up such that guys like this can plod on two decades or more past the point they should have realized they weren’t on a tenure trajectory. Now he’s 40-something and has to start over in something else (data science?), probably with very little saved for retirement and possibly having missed out or significantly delayed other aspects of life (marriage, kids, house). Why didn’t anybody tell this guy to start his career in private industry 15 years ago? Every PI in every lab he touched should have seen this coming.

whatshisface 8y ago
>Every PI in every lab he touched should have seen this coming. People are surprisingly willing to let you accidentally pour your life in to something that only marginally benefits them, that's why you have to be ever-vigilant against the many opportunities you'll have to do that. Some people are prone to slipping into the mentality of the ideal feudal peasant: "life is bad here, but the lord of the estate isn't going to grant me any freedom, so I'm just going to focus on making the best of it." A mentality like that would be great for someone who had no freedom, and indeed it would make the best of an immutable bad situation, but I see a lot of people slip in to it even when they do actually have the ability to jump to a different life track. Scientists are especially prone to this because they're pre-selected for high levels of tenacity and low levels of impulsiveness.
- hitekker 8y ago
  There is wisdom in this comment, thank you for putting the sentiment into words.
fabian2k 8y ago
I might be a bit too cynical about this topic, but it really should be obvious to anyone in the field that you're not on track to become a PI this way. If you want to pursue the academic career, you need to focus on that from the start of your PhD. And you really need to be on some position on a track towards full professor after one or at most two PostDocs. I'm quite confused by the timeline here, though. A PostDoc is usually something around 2 years, maybe 3. Four PostDocs in 23 years is unusual, and indicates positions that are closer to something like a staff scientists usually done by people with permanent positions.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
paultopia 8y ago
The really bizarre thing about this article is that the headline is about failing to get tenure, but the content is about failing to get a tenure-track job. These are really different things. I would think the author's publication record would maybe put them in the ballpark for a tenure-track job (though maybe not over 12 years, and certainty in a lower-ranked department), but absolutely not for tenure in the sciences.
chrisseaton 8y ago
Why would it delay marriage? Are people holding out for partners with tenure?
- sdenton4 8y ago
  Because you get paid peanuts while working long hours.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- jurassic 8y ago
  Dating takes time, weddings cost money, and its hard to drag partner/spouse/family around the globe for each new short-term position. I once worked in a lab that joked about a “celibate for science” lifestyle. I think the PI really actually wanted that for his grad students.
  - freewilly1040 8y ago
    I had a coworker in a lab who was married to another scientist. They had been married more than 5 years but had never lived in the same city.
    - rconti 8y ago
      My sister and BIL are both academics, and didn't "live together" for probably around 10 years, 6+ of which were after marriage. They bought a house together in the city my sister taught in, and my BIL commuted on the weekends sometimes, and they spent summers together, but it took the better part of a decade for them to both land jobs in the same city. It's incredibly common.
- mattkrause 8y ago
  Haha. Not quite but we did wait. The logistical stuff is difficult as a postdoc. A traditional wedding is fairly expensive and time-consuming to plan, and many postdocs are cash and time poor. People often like to have the ceremony near family—-isn’t the bride’s hometown traditional?—-but people move, often very far, to find good positions. Traveling back and forth is also tricky if you have experimental time points or lab animals to take care of, as we did. More psychologically, being a postdoc is a weird transitional state. I felt odd promising life-long commitment and support to one person, while not knowing if my own job was still going to support me next year. (I was on one-year renewable contracts). Finally, we were a little concerned that being married could make things more difficult for my wife. Although they shouldn’t, a surprising number of profs are reluctant to take on a postdoc who might be ‘distracted’ with a spouse or kids. Furthermore, if you have a kid as a professor, you often get an extension in the tenure clock, help with daycare, etc. As a postdoc, you can maybe get a little more time on these time-limited fellowships, but that’s about it. We eventually did get married though (and it’s been great) but waiting was not totally irrational.

whatshisface 8y ago

>Every PI in every lab he touched should have seen this coming. People are surprisingly willing to let you accidentally pour your life in to something that only marginally benefits them, that's why you have to be ever-vigilant against the many opportunities you'll have to do that. Some people are prone to slipping into the mentality of the ideal feudal peasant: "life is bad here, but the lord of the estate isn't going to grant me any freedom, so I'm just going to focus on making the best of it." A mentality like that would be great for someone who had no freedom, and indeed it would make the best of an immutable bad situation, but I see a lot of people slip in to it even when they do actually have the ability to jump to a different life track. Scientists are especially prone to this because they're pre-selected for high levels of tenacity and low levels of impulsiveness.

hitekker 8y ago
There is wisdom in this comment, thank you for putting the sentiment into words.

fabian2k 8y ago

I might be a bit too cynical about this topic, but it really should be obvious to anyone in the field that you're not on track to become a PI this way. If you want to pursue the academic career, you need to focus on that from the start of your PhD. And you really need to be on some position on a track towards full professor after one or at most two PostDocs. I'm quite confused by the timeline here, though. A PostDoc is usually something around 2 years, maybe 3. Four PostDocs in 23 years is unusual, and indicates positions that are closer to something like a staff scientists usually done by people with permanent positions.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

paultopia 8y ago

The really bizarre thing about this article is that the headline is about failing to get tenure, but the content is about failing to get a tenure-track job. These are really different things. I would think the author's publication record would maybe put them in the ballpark for a tenure-track job (though maybe not over 12 years, and certainty in a lower-ranked department), but absolutely not for tenure in the sciences.

chrisseaton 8y ago

Why would it delay marriage? Are people holding out for partners with tenure?

sdenton4 8y ago
Because you get paid peanuts while working long hours.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jurassic 8y ago
Dating takes time, weddings cost money, and its hard to drag partner/spouse/family around the globe for each new short-term position. I once worked in a lab that joked about a “celibate for science” lifestyle. I think the PI really actually wanted that for his grad students.
- freewilly1040 8y ago
  I had a coworker in a lab who was married to another scientist. They had been married more than 5 years but had never lived in the same city.
  - rconti 8y ago
    My sister and BIL are both academics, and didn't "live together" for probably around 10 years, 6+ of which were after marriage. They bought a house together in the city my sister taught in, and my BIL commuted on the weekends sometimes, and they spent summers together, but it took the better part of a decade for them to both land jobs in the same city. It's incredibly common.
mattkrause 8y ago
Haha. Not quite but we did wait. The logistical stuff is difficult as a postdoc. A traditional wedding is fairly expensive and time-consuming to plan, and many postdocs are cash and time poor. People often like to have the ceremony near family—-isn’t the bride’s hometown traditional?—-but people move, often very far, to find good positions. Traveling back and forth is also tricky if you have experimental time points or lab animals to take care of, as we did. More psychologically, being a postdoc is a weird transitional state. I felt odd promising life-long commitment and support to one person, while not knowing if my own job was still going to support me next year. (I was on one-year renewable contracts). Finally, we were a little concerned that being married could make things more difficult for my wife. Although they shouldn’t, a surprising number of profs are reluctant to take on a postdoc who might be ‘distracted’ with a spouse or kids. Furthermore, if you have a kid as a professor, you often get an extension in the tenure clock, help with daycare, etc. As a postdoc, you can maybe get a little more time on these time-limited fellowships, but that’s about it. We eventually did get married though (and it’s been great) but waiting was not totally irrational.