4 ms·

I think we need to be ensuring there are great jobs for Americans too. I think our economy needs both, and they’re not at odds. But regarding expanding populat

I think we need to be ensuring there are great jobs for Americans too. I think our economy needs both, and they’re not at odds. But regarding expanding population, I totally agree with your skepticism. I think growth for growth’s sake is the underlying problem here and merits a whole conversation on its own.

dragontamer 8y ago
There are jobs that Americans don't want to do. Ex: Nursing. Everyone knows we have a nursing shortage, nurses get paid decently and only need a bachelor's degree (compared to other medical professions which require Masters or higher-levels of Medical School). But Americans as a whole are not training up to be nurses. As such, immigration is the only way we can make up for our shortfall.
- fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
  >There are jobs that Americans don't want to do.* *At the currently offered price. If illegal immigrants had the same opportunities and rights as American citizens I suspect that they wouldn't want to do them for that price either after long. It may just be that we will have to deal with paying an extra dollar for a head of lettuce or an extra few dollars an hour for a housekeeper.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    > *At the currently offered price. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm At only a bachelor's degree, a nurse gets $70k / year on the average. It is a field that is expected to grow dramatically, even more so than computers. Outside of Comp. Sci / IT fields, Registered Nurse is one of the most highly paid bachelor's level jobs out there. If you find a hospital willing to train you up to a Masters Degree to become a Nurse Practitioner, you get well over 100k on the average. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-midwives-and-nurse-practitioners.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-... Nursing is a field with immediate job opportunities upon graduation, with the ability to train up to 100k+ jobs if you can find a post-secondary training program. DESPITE that, Americans don't typically go into nursing school. So we have to import immigrants. Culture is way deeper than just offering a steady job, a good paycheck, and promotion opportunities. The fact of the matter is, we have a nursing shortage despite it being a decent job. This country needs 15% more Registered Nurses and 30% more Nurse Practitioners over the next decade. And currently, nurses are one of the most overworked jobs because there aren't really enough of them around. > If illegal immigrants Illegal immigrants typically don't become nurses. That's totally a different subject. In any case, if there is an illegal immigrant working as a nurse, I'm inclined to say that they should stay, due to our incredible nursing shortage across this country.
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      I think we have a crossed wire here. A border wall won't prevent any nurses from entering the country. A border wall is explicitly for illegal immigration, legal immigrants just come in the front door. Typically when people say "They do the jobs that Americans won't do" they are talking about things like dish washing, construction labor and farm work. The fact of the matter is Americans won't do those jobs (at the price offered) because they have other options that pay better, offer greater advancement, job security or are less damaging to their bodies. I posit that if you gave illegal immigrants the same options as Americans they would probably make a similar decision. Allowing skilled labor to enter the country is generally beneficial, having two sets of rules for different co-existing populations is not.
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        Hmm, it seems that my root reply was poorly aimed. Reading through the comments from the top again, I think I meant to reply to someone else. Oh well, can't change that anymore. > A border wall won't prevent any nurses from entering the country With that being said, my current location is very far away from the border wall, thousands of miles north. I posit that the border wall won't help anybody in my area at all. In my experience, when talking to people who are pro-Wall, it isn't the border that they're interested in. They are generally more rural folk who see great importance in cultural homogeneity. Sure, it sounds great to city-folk to see and experience new cultures. But when you're out on the docks trying to warn people about an incoming storm... and those people don't understand English... and you don't know of anyone nearby who can help you translate (and those people WILL DIE if they go out during the storm), it leads to stressful moments. The "wall" isn't what people want. Its a political rally cry. What people want is for other politicians to understand the importance of cultural homogeneity, especially in rural situations. People in this town should speak English. People in this town should understand boating safety. Etc. etc. There isn't anyone else in the town who can help, so identifying the core cultural requirements to survive and help each other out is important. And finally, what people want is the ability to represent this thought without being called racist. --------- That's my experience on the matter. As such, Democrats are correct to point out the folly of the Wall: it doesn't actually solve any of the problems that Trump's base wants (excepting the small portion of Trump's base which actually live on the border). Or more specifically, the problems I've identified from the people I've talked to at least. I could be wrong, but... that's my understanding of things for now. The problem with Democrats is that they can't see the benefits of cultural homogeneity, likely because they don't live in the rural areas which benefit from these alternative policies. ------------ In any case, the Wall addresses no actual problem. Its fully a distraction. Even if the wall is built, it won't change the Democrat's point of view (or lead to greater understanding between the political parties).
- deogeo 8y ago
  There are many developed countries with negligible immigration, compared to the US. Why not follow their example on how to solve this? Other countries make a fine example when extolling the virtues of socialized medicine, so why is this area an exception?
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    For better or for worse, doctors are very well respected in the USA. Socialized medicine is normally associated with a loss in respect to that profession. I personally think that a huge problem in our medical system is the lack of staff. And this is an area that virtually everyone should be able to agree too. Its no major policy change, its simply the acknowledgement that we need more nurses in our hospitals, especially as Baby Boomers retire and age. There are major policy questions: physician assisted suicide, contraceptives, abortion, etc. etc. But I'm not pushing any of that. I'm simply stating one area where I'm almost certain every American can agree with me on (once they look at the stats). We need more nurses. Its the most logical way forward. If you want socialized medicine, whatever, we'll also need more nurses for that to work anyway. So it doesn't matter if you are socialist, capitalist, communist, legalist or whatever, the nurse shortage is real and obvious. Immigration can serve as a band-aid to the nurse problem. We import nurses from other countries, while trying to figure out how to convince Americans to enter nursing degrees.
    - deogeo 8y ago
      Given the high amount of immigration to the US, both compared to other developed countries, and to its own history in the last century (http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/09/28/chapter-5-u-s-foreign-born-population-trends/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/09/28/chapter-5-u-s-foreign-...), shouldn't it have solved worker shortages by now?
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        "Solved" is a strange word. That implies that there is an end to the improvement to our country. Compared to... say Japan... the USA is doing a heck of a lot better at maintaining high levels of productivity and luxury for our citizens. Japan is clearly hampered by an aging workforce and a lack of immigrants, for example. Ditto with China (especially because China had their abysmal "one child" policy for years). So of the top 3 nations by absolute productivity (defined as GDP), the USA is doing best. (Heck, USA is even on the top10 GDP-per-capita, so we're quite efficient compared to other countries). That doesn't change the fact that we could be doing BETTER.

dragontamer 8y ago

There are jobs that Americans don't want to do. Ex: Nursing. Everyone knows we have a nursing shortage, nurses get paid decently and only need a bachelor's degree (compared to other medical professions which require Masters or higher-levels of Medical School). But Americans as a whole are not training up to be nurses. As such, immigration is the only way we can make up for our shortfall.

fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
>There are jobs that Americans don't want to do.* *At the currently offered price. If illegal immigrants had the same opportunities and rights as American citizens I suspect that they wouldn't want to do them for that price either after long. It may just be that we will have to deal with paying an extra dollar for a head of lettuce or an extra few dollars an hour for a housekeeper.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  > *At the currently offered price. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm At only a bachelor's degree, a nurse gets $70k / year on the average. It is a field that is expected to grow dramatically, even more so than computers. Outside of Comp. Sci / IT fields, Registered Nurse is one of the most highly paid bachelor's level jobs out there. If you find a hospital willing to train you up to a Masters Degree to become a Nurse Practitioner, you get well over 100k on the average. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-midwives-and-nurse-practitioners.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-... Nursing is a field with immediate job opportunities upon graduation, with the ability to train up to 100k+ jobs if you can find a post-secondary training program. DESPITE that, Americans don't typically go into nursing school. So we have to import immigrants. Culture is way deeper than just offering a steady job, a good paycheck, and promotion opportunities. The fact of the matter is, we have a nursing shortage despite it being a decent job. This country needs 15% more Registered Nurses and 30% more Nurse Practitioners over the next decade. And currently, nurses are one of the most overworked jobs because there aren't really enough of them around. > If illegal immigrants Illegal immigrants typically don't become nurses. That's totally a different subject. In any case, if there is an illegal immigrant working as a nurse, I'm inclined to say that they should stay, due to our incredible nursing shortage across this country.
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    I think we have a crossed wire here. A border wall won't prevent any nurses from entering the country. A border wall is explicitly for illegal immigration, legal immigrants just come in the front door. Typically when people say "They do the jobs that Americans won't do" they are talking about things like dish washing, construction labor and farm work. The fact of the matter is Americans won't do those jobs (at the price offered) because they have other options that pay better, offer greater advancement, job security or are less damaging to their bodies. I posit that if you gave illegal immigrants the same options as Americans they would probably make a similar decision. Allowing skilled labor to enter the country is generally beneficial, having two sets of rules for different co-existing populations is not.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      Hmm, it seems that my root reply was poorly aimed. Reading through the comments from the top again, I think I meant to reply to someone else. Oh well, can't change that anymore. > A border wall won't prevent any nurses from entering the country With that being said, my current location is very far away from the border wall, thousands of miles north. I posit that the border wall won't help anybody in my area at all. In my experience, when talking to people who are pro-Wall, it isn't the border that they're interested in. They are generally more rural folk who see great importance in cultural homogeneity. Sure, it sounds great to city-folk to see and experience new cultures. But when you're out on the docks trying to warn people about an incoming storm... and those people don't understand English... and you don't know of anyone nearby who can help you translate (and those people WILL DIE if they go out during the storm), it leads to stressful moments. The "wall" isn't what people want. Its a political rally cry. What people want is for other politicians to understand the importance of cultural homogeneity, especially in rural situations. People in this town should speak English. People in this town should understand boating safety. Etc. etc. There isn't anyone else in the town who can help, so identifying the core cultural requirements to survive and help each other out is important. And finally, what people want is the ability to represent this thought without being called racist. --------- That's my experience on the matter. As such, Democrats are correct to point out the folly of the Wall: it doesn't actually solve any of the problems that Trump's base wants (excepting the small portion of Trump's base which actually live on the border). Or more specifically, the problems I've identified from the people I've talked to at least. I could be wrong, but... that's my understanding of things for now. The problem with Democrats is that they can't see the benefits of cultural homogeneity, likely because they don't live in the rural areas which benefit from these alternative policies. ------------ In any case, the Wall addresses no actual problem. Its fully a distraction. Even if the wall is built, it won't change the Democrat's point of view (or lead to greater understanding between the political parties).
deogeo 8y ago
There are many developed countries with negligible immigration, compared to the US. Why not follow their example on how to solve this? Other countries make a fine example when extolling the virtues of socialized medicine, so why is this area an exception?
- dragontamer 8y ago
  For better or for worse, doctors are very well respected in the USA. Socialized medicine is normally associated with a loss in respect to that profession. I personally think that a huge problem in our medical system is the lack of staff. And this is an area that virtually everyone should be able to agree too. Its no major policy change, its simply the acknowledgement that we need more nurses in our hospitals, especially as Baby Boomers retire and age. There are major policy questions: physician assisted suicide, contraceptives, abortion, etc. etc. But I'm not pushing any of that. I'm simply stating one area where I'm almost certain every American can agree with me on (once they look at the stats). We need more nurses. Its the most logical way forward. If you want socialized medicine, whatever, we'll also need more nurses for that to work anyway. So it doesn't matter if you are socialist, capitalist, communist, legalist or whatever, the nurse shortage is real and obvious. Immigration can serve as a band-aid to the nurse problem. We import nurses from other countries, while trying to figure out how to convince Americans to enter nursing degrees.
  - deogeo 8y ago
    Given the high amount of immigration to the US, both compared to other developed countries, and to its own history in the last century (http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/09/28/chapter-5-u-s-foreign-born-population-trends/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/09/28/chapter-5-u-s-foreign-...), shouldn't it have solved worker shortages by now?
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      "Solved" is a strange word. That implies that there is an end to the improvement to our country. Compared to... say Japan... the USA is doing a heck of a lot better at maintaining high levels of productivity and luxury for our citizens. Japan is clearly hampered by an aging workforce and a lack of immigrants, for example. Ditto with China (especially because China had their abysmal "one child" policy for years). So of the top 3 nations by absolute productivity (defined as GDP), the USA is doing best. (Heck, USA is even on the top10 GDP-per-capita, so we're quite efficient compared to other countries). That doesn't change the fact that we could be doing BETTER.