5 ms·

I think the difference is that the chromecast would not function without 8.8.8.8. Thus requiring you use googles services to use a google product. That is not c

I think the difference is that the chromecast would not function without 8.8.8.8. Thus requiring you use googles services to use a google product. That is not cool.

sowbug 8y ago
Isn't using a company's product exactly when you'd expect a dependency on that company's service?
- CapacitorSet 8y ago
  It's not a dependency that I expect of browsing devices. I expect to be able to use eg. a TV, a radio or an ebook reader entirely without relying on the vendor, save for technical support maybe.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    Chromecast isn't a browsing device.
- SilverSurfer972 8y ago
  DNS is a protocol not a service
  - DaniloDias 8y ago
    Respectfully, DNS Spelled out is "Domain Name Service" There is both a protocol and a service associated with DNS.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    I think you meant to reply to the parent comment.
- SilverSurfer972 8y ago
  You don't have every single car brand with their own fuel at the gas station right?
  - sowbug 8y ago
    If a car brand did, I would find it surprising that a buyer of that brand would complain about it.
    - mrighele 8y ago
      He would complain if he was forced to buy _only_ that brand's gasoline. That's in fact the approach of many printer manufacturers regarding toner/ink cartridges, and usually users complain about that.
      - sowbug 8y ago
        I wrote "buyer," not "user" or "complainer." I have no problem with self-appointed Good Samaritans who leave anti-Lexmark Amazon reviews. But a buyer of a car requiring the manufacturer's gas would understand what he or she was getting into.
- bashinator 8y ago
  This is an artificial dependency. There is no good reason why this device should require a specific nameserver. Here are some reasons I can think of that this would be required: * Getting device metrics for Google's internal use * DNS lookups that are only available from querying google directly - in other words, recursion is disabled for some records needed by the device The first case should be entirely optional, the second case is deliberate subversion of internet standards.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    I spent some time researching consumer hardware that consistently sacrificed usability for architectural purity. I'll update this reply as soon as I find an example.
    - bashinator 8y ago
      I'm trying to figure out how this use of DNS would improve usability for the device owner, and how implementing the DNS client in a standard way could be considered "architectural purity".
      - sowbug 8y ago
        You're repeating yourself.
- __jal 8y ago
  Personally, I expect devices that claim to function with TCP/IP, DNS, https, etc. actually function with them, and not with a tiny subset of their proprietary implementations. If Google wants to sell captive toys well, that's nothing I'd ever buy, but they're free to. But it needs to be clear that it is a proprietary widget, dependent on Google's services and incapable of operating in environments where those dependencies are unacceptable.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Were you really under any illusion that all set top boxes/dongles weren’t proprietary widgets?
- scarface74 8y ago
  Just a random aside. You couldn’t download third party apps on the 3rd generation AppleTV, but without jailbreaking, the community made a Plex app, merely by running a Python script and redirecting DNS to your computer that intercepted calls to the Apple Trailers app. https://github.com/iBaa/PlexConnect https://github.com/iBaa/PlexConnect I’m sure some inventive person could figure out a creative use for a ChromeCast. But overall, I agree with you.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    You're being consistent with Richard Stallman's model of freedom for general-purpose PCs vs. appliances: As for microwave ovens and other appliances, if updating software is not a normal part of use of the device, then it is not a computer. In that case, I think the user need not take cognizance of whether the device contains a processor and software, or is built some other way. However, if it has an "update firmware" button, that means installing different software is a normal part of use, so it is a computer. Many of the objections in comments to this post are expressed in terms of standards compliance or interoperability. I think it makes more sense to analyze whether it's a general-purpose PC or not. https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
kllrnohj 8y ago
Cast itself requires you to use googles services to use the product. It bounces off of Google's servers for app & stream setup, along with authentication. So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server? It's still going to connect to google's data center to do the singular function of the device. And as the product itself is billed as an internet streaming appliance the cloud connection doesn't seem odd or surprising, either. It fits the functionality of the product.
- ignoramous 8y ago
  > So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server? It might since there are DNS providers (OpenDNS, AdGuard) that help create blacklists or use one out of the box (family filters, privacy oriented filters, etc). Also, not sure if true, but Google might be required to comply with local laws and 'block' websites through NXDomains.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    How would you use the device if you blacklisted its cloud?
    - wtallis 8y ago
      It's more about the fact that this device is unnecessarily requiring you to open a hole in that layer of security, potentially leaving other devices exposed if the exception for the Chromecast Ultra is not properly configured.
      - kllrnohj 8y ago
        The device requires you to open holes to its cloud. Why does which IP it demands is open matter here? If you want to blackhole IPs yeah it's going to be painful at times. But you signed up for that by trying to blackhole IPs, no?
toast0 8y ago
That's why I said "It's not reasonable to ignore DHCP when the fallback DNS doesn't work though"
- jethro_tell 8y ago
  It should probably be the other way around from a product perspective. The box is super simple, it's basically a black box, and having some ISP serving you an ad instead of your video link would make it seem like it 'doesn't work' for most customers. A device like that is more likely to be returned than to go through support. However, if you're competent to care about which DNS server you use, or you're doing something like blocking DNS traffic that doesn'r originate from your DNS recurser, you have the capability to change the DNS settings yourself without incurring a bunch of support burden or returning the device out of frustration. There should be an option in the box settings that lets you choose, google, dhcp, or manual dns servers. Probably in that order.

I think the difference is that the chromecast would not function without 8.8.8.8. Thus requiring you use googles services to use a google product. That is not cool.

sowbug 8y ago

Isn't using a company's product exactly when you'd expect a dependency on that company's service?

CapacitorSet 8y ago
It's not a dependency that I expect of browsing devices. I expect to be able to use eg. a TV, a radio or an ebook reader entirely without relying on the vendor, save for technical support maybe.
- sowbug 8y ago
  Chromecast isn't a browsing device.
SilverSurfer972 8y ago
DNS is a protocol not a service
- DaniloDias 8y ago
  Respectfully, DNS Spelled out is "Domain Name Service" There is both a protocol and a service associated with DNS.
- sowbug 8y ago
  I think you meant to reply to the parent comment.
SilverSurfer972 8y ago
You don't have every single car brand with their own fuel at the gas station right?
- sowbug 8y ago
  If a car brand did, I would find it surprising that a buyer of that brand would complain about it.
  - mrighele 8y ago
    He would complain if he was forced to buy _only_ that brand's gasoline. That's in fact the approach of many printer manufacturers regarding toner/ink cartridges, and usually users complain about that.
    - sowbug 8y ago
      I wrote "buyer," not "user" or "complainer." I have no problem with self-appointed Good Samaritans who leave anti-Lexmark Amazon reviews. But a buyer of a car requiring the manufacturer's gas would understand what he or she was getting into.
bashinator 8y ago
This is an artificial dependency. There is no good reason why this device should require a specific nameserver. Here are some reasons I can think of that this would be required: * Getting device metrics for Google's internal use * DNS lookups that are only available from querying google directly - in other words, recursion is disabled for some records needed by the device The first case should be entirely optional, the second case is deliberate subversion of internet standards.
- sowbug 8y ago
  I spent some time researching consumer hardware that consistently sacrificed usability for architectural purity. I'll update this reply as soon as I find an example.
  - bashinator 8y ago
    I'm trying to figure out how this use of DNS would improve usability for the device owner, and how implementing the DNS client in a standard way could be considered "architectural purity".
    - sowbug 8y ago
      You're repeating yourself.
__jal 8y ago
Personally, I expect devices that claim to function with TCP/IP, DNS, https, etc. actually function with them, and not with a tiny subset of their proprietary implementations. If Google wants to sell captive toys well, that's nothing I'd ever buy, but they're free to. But it needs to be clear that it is a proprietary widget, dependent on Google's services and incapable of operating in environments where those dependencies are unacceptable.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Were you really under any illusion that all set top boxes/dongles weren’t proprietary widgets?
scarface74 8y ago
Just a random aside. You couldn’t download third party apps on the 3rd generation AppleTV, but without jailbreaking, the community made a Plex app, merely by running a Python script and redirecting DNS to your computer that intercepted calls to the Apple Trailers app. https://github.com/iBaa/PlexConnect https://github.com/iBaa/PlexConnect I’m sure some inventive person could figure out a creative use for a ChromeCast. But overall, I agree with you.
- sowbug 8y ago
  You're being consistent with Richard Stallman's model of freedom for general-purpose PCs vs. appliances: As for microwave ovens and other appliances, if updating software is not a normal part of use of the device, then it is not a computer. In that case, I think the user need not take cognizance of whether the device contains a processor and software, or is built some other way. However, if it has an "update firmware" button, that means installing different software is a normal part of use, so it is a computer. Many of the objections in comments to this post are expressed in terms of standards compliance or interoperability. I think it makes more sense to analyze whether it's a general-purpose PC or not. https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html

kllrnohj 8y ago

Cast itself requires you to use googles services to use the product. It bounces off of Google's servers for app & stream setup, along with authentication. So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server? It's still going to connect to google's data center to do the singular function of the device. And as the product itself is billed as an internet streaming appliance the cloud connection doesn't seem odd or surprising, either. It fits the functionality of the product.

ignoramous 8y ago
> So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server? It might since there are DNS providers (OpenDNS, AdGuard) that help create blacklists or use one out of the box (family filters, privacy oriented filters, etc). Also, not sure if true, but Google might be required to comply with local laws and 'block' websites through NXDomains.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  How would you use the device if you blacklisted its cloud?
  - wtallis 8y ago
    It's more about the fact that this device is unnecessarily requiring you to open a hole in that layer of security, potentially leaving other devices exposed if the exception for the Chromecast Ultra is not properly configured.
    - kllrnohj 8y ago
      The device requires you to open holes to its cloud. Why does which IP it demands is open matter here? If you want to blackhole IPs yeah it's going to be painful at times. But you signed up for that by trying to blackhole IPs, no?

toast0 8y ago

That's why I said "It's not reasonable to ignore DHCP when the fallback DNS doesn't work though"

jethro_tell 8y ago
It should probably be the other way around from a product perspective. The box is super simple, it's basically a black box, and having some ISP serving you an ad instead of your video link would make it seem like it 'doesn't work' for most customers. A device like that is more likely to be returned than to go through support. However, if you're competent to care about which DNS server you use, or you're doing something like blocking DNS traffic that doesn'r originate from your DNS recurser, you have the capability to change the DNS settings yourself without incurring a bunch of support burden or returning the device out of frustration. There should be an option in the box settings that lets you choose, google, dhcp, or manual dns servers. Probably in that order.