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Definitely no monolithic opinion but my cohort (i.e. those I speak to regularly about this issue) believe there should be major reforms to vastly simplify legal

Definitely no monolithic opinion but my cohort (i.e. those I speak to regularly about this issue) believe there should be major reforms to vastly simplify legal immigration and enable a clear path to citizenship. You might call this open borders, but that implies a free-for-all. I personally think getting a work visa should be pretty easy, taxes paid by all, and employers should be severely punished for attempting to hire under the table. I think you’re right to say illegal immigration causes a caste system. I think that’s artificially created by our strict immigration policies. We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. There are people who want to pursue a better life by moving here. Why get in the way?

cheeseomlit 8y ago
>We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. Do we really though? The actual unemployment rate is about 8% representing over 10 million unemployed Americans, personally I think they should be the priority. I'm also skeptical of expanding our population indefinitely, our infrastructure is already unable to handle the amount of people using it- ask anyone who commutes to work in LA traffic
- teucris 8y ago
  I think we need to be ensuring there are great jobs for Americans too. I think our economy needs both, and they’re not at odds. But regarding expanding population, I totally agree with your skepticism. I think growth for growth’s sake is the underlying problem here and merits a whole conversation on its own.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    There are jobs that Americans don't want to do. Ex: Nursing. Everyone knows we have a nursing shortage, nurses get paid decently and only need a bachelor's degree (compared to other medical professions which require Masters or higher-levels of Medical School). But Americans as a whole are not training up to be nurses. As such, immigration is the only way we can make up for our shortfall.
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      >There are jobs that Americans don't want to do.* *At the currently offered price. If illegal immigrants had the same opportunities and rights as American citizens I suspect that they wouldn't want to do them for that price either after long. It may just be that we will have to deal with paying an extra dollar for a head of lettuce or an extra few dollars an hour for a housekeeper.
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        > *At the currently offered price. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm At only a bachelor's degree, a nurse gets $70k / year on the average. It is a field that is expected to grow dramatically, even more so than computers. Outside of Comp. Sci / IT fields, Registered Nurse is one of the most highly paid bachelor's level jobs out there. If you find a hospital willing to train you up to a Masters Degree to become a Nurse Practitioner, you get well over 100k on the average. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-midwives-and-nurse-practitioners.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-... Nursing is a field with immediate job opportunities upon graduation, with the ability to train up to 100k+ jobs if you can find a post-secondary training program. DESPITE that, Americans don't typically go into nursing school. So we have to import immigrants. Culture is way deeper than just offering a steady job, a good paycheck, and promotion opportunities. The fact of the matter is, we have a nursing shortage despite it being a decent job. This country needs 15% more Registered Nurses and 30% more Nurse Practitioners over the next decade. And currently, nurses are one of the most overworked jobs because there aren't really enough of them around. > If illegal immigrants Illegal immigrants typically don't become nurses. That's totally a different subject. In any case, if there is an illegal immigrant working as a nurse, I'm inclined to say that they should stay, due to our incredible nursing shortage across this country.
        fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
        I think we have a crossed wire here. A border wall won't prevent any nurses from entering the country. A border wall is explicitly for illegal immigration, legal immigrants just come in the front door. Typically when people say "They do the jobs that Americans won't do" they are talking about things like dish washing, construction labor and farm work. The fact of the matter is Americans won't do those jobs (at the price offered) because they have other options that pay better, offer greater advancement, job security or are less damaging to their bodies. I posit that if you gave illegal immigrants the same options as Americans they would probably make a similar decision. Allowing skilled labor to enter the country is generally beneficial, having two sets of rules for different co-existing populations is not.
fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
That's perfectly reasonable and honestly I agree. If people coming here have the same rights and responsibilities I don't see the issue. The only thing I'd add is it may make sense to have a waiting period for certain welfare programs like the UK does, where you have to pay into the system for a little while before you are eligible in order to prevent people from coming for solely that purpose. Outside of that it seems such a plan would be popular, why isn't anyone framing it this way? Instead I see that we should #DefundICE[0], why is that better than reforming the laws that ICE is enforcing? [0]https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/aoc-ice-illegal-immigration-aoc/2019/02/07/id/901772/ https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/aoc-ice-illegal-immigratio...
- teucris 8y ago
  I won’t try to represent the whole #defundICE movement, but I think that ICE is seen as the government manifestation of immoral immigration policies. So it’s more like #defundICEandReformImmigrationPoliciesToBeMoreHumane but that makes for a terrible hashtag. I think policy makers do a poor job of framing arguments in a way that can be intelligently discussed. That’s one of the reasons I love HN - commenters hold much more nuanced debate.
- uniacid 8y ago
  I don't think Newsmax is the best source of news on this, you might as well have linked Breitbart. As far as the defund ICE movement, it's just a small movement by a small set of people (namely AOC whom conservatives think is their modern red herring), lets not generalize and say all left leaning people want this when in reality they most likely don't, but you have to understand ICE has been abusing its power and it has also pushed to help create a massive private industry of private prisons housing "illegals" in which you could say should be defunded or more regulated since it's not properly handling people humanely nor are they helping the situation at hand.
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    >I don't think Newsmax is the best source of news on this, you might as well have linked Breitbart. The cspan video in the link has her entire comments unedited for you to review if you doubt she made the statement. I wasn't able to find CNN or Buzzfeed's reporting on the matter I presume they chose to not cover it. I am citeing it for the quote not any of the editorial content, I'd cite the video directly but it's over half an hour long. >As far as the defund ICE movement, it's just a small movement by a small set of people This small set of people are extremely loud, if you have a more reasonable voice please use it. The DNC would be wise here to put forward their plan for immigration because as I see it today AOC and her supporters are driving the conversation from the left at least as far as public perception goes.
deogeo 8y ago
> We need more workers of all skill levels I never understood this argument. Don't you wind up with the same problems as before, only with more people? "We need more workers" - but it's not the rivers and forests and houses that need more workers, it's the people. So won't those extra people end up needing more workers of their own, in perpetuity?
forgottenpass 8y ago
"Simple" and "easy" as in straightforward bureaucracy in the application process? Or "easy" as in a no/few applications are ever denied?

cheeseomlit 8y ago

>We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. Do we really though? The actual unemployment rate is about 8% representing over 10 million unemployed Americans, personally I think they should be the priority. I'm also skeptical of expanding our population indefinitely, our infrastructure is already unable to handle the amount of people using it- ask anyone who commutes to work in LA traffic

teucris 8y ago
I think we need to be ensuring there are great jobs for Americans too. I think our economy needs both, and they’re not at odds. But regarding expanding population, I totally agree with your skepticism. I think growth for growth’s sake is the underlying problem here and merits a whole conversation on its own.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  There are jobs that Americans don't want to do. Ex: Nursing. Everyone knows we have a nursing shortage, nurses get paid decently and only need a bachelor's degree (compared to other medical professions which require Masters or higher-levels of Medical School). But Americans as a whole are not training up to be nurses. As such, immigration is the only way we can make up for our shortfall.
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    >There are jobs that Americans don't want to do.* *At the currently offered price. If illegal immigrants had the same opportunities and rights as American citizens I suspect that they wouldn't want to do them for that price either after long. It may just be that we will have to deal with paying an extra dollar for a head of lettuce or an extra few dollars an hour for a housekeeper.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      > *At the currently offered price. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm At only a bachelor's degree, a nurse gets $70k / year on the average. It is a field that is expected to grow dramatically, even more so than computers. Outside of Comp. Sci / IT fields, Registered Nurse is one of the most highly paid bachelor's level jobs out there. If you find a hospital willing to train you up to a Masters Degree to become a Nurse Practitioner, you get well over 100k on the average. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-midwives-and-nurse-practitioners.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nurse-anesthetists-nurse-... Nursing is a field with immediate job opportunities upon graduation, with the ability to train up to 100k+ jobs if you can find a post-secondary training program. DESPITE that, Americans don't typically go into nursing school. So we have to import immigrants. Culture is way deeper than just offering a steady job, a good paycheck, and promotion opportunities. The fact of the matter is, we have a nursing shortage despite it being a decent job. This country needs 15% more Registered Nurses and 30% more Nurse Practitioners over the next decade. And currently, nurses are one of the most overworked jobs because there aren't really enough of them around. > If illegal immigrants Illegal immigrants typically don't become nurses. That's totally a different subject. In any case, if there is an illegal immigrant working as a nurse, I'm inclined to say that they should stay, due to our incredible nursing shortage across this country.
      - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
        I think we have a crossed wire here. A border wall won't prevent any nurses from entering the country. A border wall is explicitly for illegal immigration, legal immigrants just come in the front door. Typically when people say "They do the jobs that Americans won't do" they are talking about things like dish washing, construction labor and farm work. The fact of the matter is Americans won't do those jobs (at the price offered) because they have other options that pay better, offer greater advancement, job security or are less damaging to their bodies. I posit that if you gave illegal immigrants the same options as Americans they would probably make a similar decision. Allowing skilled labor to enter the country is generally beneficial, having two sets of rules for different co-existing populations is not.

fuzz4lyfe 8y ago

That's perfectly reasonable and honestly I agree. If people coming here have the same rights and responsibilities I don't see the issue. The only thing I'd add is it may make sense to have a waiting period for certain welfare programs like the UK does, where you have to pay into the system for a little while before you are eligible in order to prevent people from coming for solely that purpose. Outside of that it seems such a plan would be popular, why isn't anyone framing it this way? Instead I see that we should #DefundICE[0], why is that better than reforming the laws that ICE is enforcing? [0]https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/aoc-ice-illegal-immigration-aoc/2019/02/07/id/901772/ https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/aoc-ice-illegal-immigratio...

teucris 8y ago
I won’t try to represent the whole #defundICE movement, but I think that ICE is seen as the government manifestation of immoral immigration policies. So it’s more like #defundICEandReformImmigrationPoliciesToBeMoreHumane but that makes for a terrible hashtag. I think policy makers do a poor job of framing arguments in a way that can be intelligently discussed. That’s one of the reasons I love HN - commenters hold much more nuanced debate.
uniacid 8y ago
I don't think Newsmax is the best source of news on this, you might as well have linked Breitbart. As far as the defund ICE movement, it's just a small movement by a small set of people (namely AOC whom conservatives think is their modern red herring), lets not generalize and say all left leaning people want this when in reality they most likely don't, but you have to understand ICE has been abusing its power and it has also pushed to help create a massive private industry of private prisons housing "illegals" in which you could say should be defunded or more regulated since it's not properly handling people humanely nor are they helping the situation at hand.
- fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
  >I don't think Newsmax is the best source of news on this, you might as well have linked Breitbart. The cspan video in the link has her entire comments unedited for you to review if you doubt she made the statement. I wasn't able to find CNN or Buzzfeed's reporting on the matter I presume they chose to not cover it. I am citeing it for the quote not any of the editorial content, I'd cite the video directly but it's over half an hour long. >As far as the defund ICE movement, it's just a small movement by a small set of people This small set of people are extremely loud, if you have a more reasonable voice please use it. The DNC would be wise here to put forward their plan for immigration because as I see it today AOC and her supporters are driving the conversation from the left at least as far as public perception goes.

deogeo 8y ago

> We need more workers of all skill levels I never understood this argument. Don't you wind up with the same problems as before, only with more people? "We need more workers" - but it's not the rivers and forests and houses that need more workers, it's the people. So won't those extra people end up needing more workers of their own, in perpetuity?

forgottenpass 8y ago

"Simple" and "easy" as in straightforward bureaucracy in the application process? Or "easy" as in a no/few applications are ever denied?