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I remember when Reagan signed legislation granting citizenship to millions of illegals. At the time the idea was that in exchange for doing this the border wit

by skh 8y ago

I remember when Reagan signed legislation granting citizenship to millions of illegals. At the time the idea was that in exchange for doing this the border with Mexico would be tightened. Bush II had a decent proposal for addressing the large number of illegals in the country but his party shot down the proposal. Under Obama deportations greatly increased. This is an issue that has been going on for decades and one that resonates with a certain segment of the voting population. I see no resolution as long as businesses profit off illegal labor with impunity. I've come to believe that few in power actually want to change things. Both major parties can flame the passions of their respective bases by keeping the status quo. If the prognostications of the effects of global warming are true then it is rational to want to fix the situation. Mass migrations are occurring and will get worse. The whole issue is a symptom of a broken political system in my opinion.

fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
I find to hard to understand what the lefts actual position is on illegal immigration. I know they aren't a monolith but is the idea that immigration laws should still exist but not be enforced (or enforced lightly)? That seems to me to create a caste system where you have legal citizens and illegal citizens with defacto less rights. If people want open borders, or something like it. My view is they should say so proudly and clearly. It's a defensible position even if I disagree. If the idea is we are going to continue to have a slave caste of illegal immigrants without many labor protections and fearful that their employer will call ICE on them if they don't work unpaid overtime, not only is that indefensible I'd be willing to go to war over it just like my ancestors did the last time we had a similar institution in America.
- skh 8y ago
  Your points are well made. I'd not thought of the status quo as one that effectively creates a "slave caste". I concur. I don't know what left leaning people want on immigration. I'm a very liberal person myself and I think it's rational to want to have control over who gets into the country and who doesn't. I don't think wanting a border wall makes one automatically racist. It does happen to be true that most racist people do want a wall but as the oft quoted saying says, "A broken clock is right twice a day." In the early 90s a friend from Spain told me that it was racist for Reagan to have wanted to build a wall. Of course she ignored the fact that Spain has walls around its African cities.
  - bllguo 8y ago
    The best solution people can come up with in the 21st century is certainly not a primitive giant wall, which would maybe have been state-of-the-art in the 1400s. I find it very disingenuous to suggest it's either a wall or no security at all. As for what left-leaning people want, politicians all have their positions plastered on the internet.
    - krapp 8y ago
      > I find it very disingenuous to suggest it's either a wall or no security at all. The narrative they're trying to sell is that the state of America's border security has been so thoroughly undermined by leftists and socialists and Democrats who want to rig elections by welcoming illegal immigrants that thousands or tens of thousands of people are literally swarming over the southern border every day raping and killing with impunity and stealing our jobs and diluting our culture and only a wall can stop it. The wall is not about actual, effective border security, it's about selling America on xenophobic panic and anti-progressive propaganda through a manufactured crisis that needs "emergency measures." It's shock doctrine.
- teucris 8y ago
  Definitely no monolithic opinion but my cohort (i.e. those I speak to regularly about this issue) believe there should be major reforms to vastly simplify legal immigration and enable a clear path to citizenship. You might call this open borders, but that implies a free-for-all. I personally think getting a work visa should be pretty easy, taxes paid by all, and employers should be severely punished for attempting to hire under the table. I think you’re right to say illegal immigration causes a caste system. I think that’s artificially created by our strict immigration policies. We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. There are people who want to pursue a better life by moving here. Why get in the way?
  - cheeseomlit 8y ago
    >We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. Do we really though? The actual unemployment rate is about 8% representing over 10 million unemployed Americans, personally I think they should be the priority. I'm also skeptical of expanding our population indefinitely, our infrastructure is already unable to handle the amount of people using it- ask anyone who commutes to work in LA traffic
    - teucris 8y ago
      I think we need to be ensuring there are great jobs for Americans too. I think our economy needs both, and they’re not at odds. But regarding expanding population, I totally agree with your skepticism. I think growth for growth’s sake is the underlying problem here and merits a whole conversation on its own.
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        There are jobs that Americans don't want to do. Ex: Nursing. Everyone knows we have a nursing shortage, nurses get paid decently and only need a bachelor's degree (compared to other medical professions which require Masters or higher-levels of Medical School). But Americans as a whole are not training up to be nurses. As such, immigration is the only way we can make up for our shortfall.
- cheeseomlit 8y ago
  They make their position quite clear when they say things like "But who will do the jobs Americans don't want to do, like picking fruit and cleaning our houses?" It's not just Democrats, both sides are guilty of facilitating this. Nationwide e-verify is a common sense solution that nobody in power seems interested in implementing.
  - burfog 8y ago
    Isn't it weird that picking fruit and cleaning our houses are the normal examples? I suspect that "picking fruit" is a dog whistle along the lines of "picking cotton", showing how people actually feel about Mexicans. The same goes for "jobs Americans don't want to do" actually. It's 2019 and some people want slaves, even if it isn't considered acceptable to openly admit this. Much the same applies to "cleaning our houses", but with an extra helping of discrimination against Americans who would be willing to to that. Many of those Americans would be seen as a threat or as a fellow human being, depending on race, but a Mexican who speaks Spanish can be ignored like a Roomba.
  - CM30 8y ago
    The 'jobs Americans won't do' thing certainly annoys me as well. Because at the end of the day, no, they will do those jobs. They'll do them when/if the pay, conditions and other aspects of the role become good enough for it to be worth it. If you can't get people to do a job, pay more and offer better perks. If you can't afford to pay more or offer better conditions, well tough luck, it means your business isn't financially feasible to operate in this market. Any company that only functions due to illegal immigration and paying people less than normal wages is morally bankrupt, and shouldn't be around.
    - fzeroracer 8y ago
      There are some jobs that Americans literally will not do. Another poster here brought up nursing, which does in fact pay well and has good benefits. But no one is training to be a nurse, and so we have a lack of people qualified to do the job. The only solution is to bring in qualified labor, because training the labor force requires years of effort and upending cultural inertia. There are some jobs where I agree, the pay and benefits are not good enough to bring in labor. Using immigration as an excuse to pay people less in those situations is bad and is fixed by ensuring labor laws protect even illegal immigrants and companies that exploit them are punished.
aglavine 8y ago
Drug legalization (regulated) can be a solution. Also, if things start to improve in Mexico migrations will disminish more, although with Lopez Obrador probably things will get worse.
- cosmez 8y ago
  How is it going to be worse? He's lowering taxes in the border and trying to convince Central American immigrants to stay in Mexico.
  - aglavine 8y ago
    He supports Maduro.

by skh 8y ago

fuzz4lyfe 8y ago

I find to hard to understand what the lefts actual position is on illegal immigration. I know they aren't a monolith but is the idea that immigration laws should still exist but not be enforced (or enforced lightly)? That seems to me to create a caste system where you have legal citizens and illegal citizens with defacto less rights. If people want open borders, or something like it. My view is they should say so proudly and clearly. It's a defensible position even if I disagree. If the idea is we are going to continue to have a slave caste of illegal immigrants without many labor protections and fearful that their employer will call ICE on them if they don't work unpaid overtime, not only is that indefensible I'd be willing to go to war over it just like my ancestors did the last time we had a similar institution in America.

skh 8y ago
Your points are well made. I'd not thought of the status quo as one that effectively creates a "slave caste". I concur. I don't know what left leaning people want on immigration. I'm a very liberal person myself and I think it's rational to want to have control over who gets into the country and who doesn't. I don't think wanting a border wall makes one automatically racist. It does happen to be true that most racist people do want a wall but as the oft quoted saying says, "A broken clock is right twice a day." In the early 90s a friend from Spain told me that it was racist for Reagan to have wanted to build a wall. Of course she ignored the fact that Spain has walls around its African cities.
- bllguo 8y ago
  The best solution people can come up with in the 21st century is certainly not a primitive giant wall, which would maybe have been state-of-the-art in the 1400s. I find it very disingenuous to suggest it's either a wall or no security at all. As for what left-leaning people want, politicians all have their positions plastered on the internet.
  - krapp 8y ago
    > I find it very disingenuous to suggest it's either a wall or no security at all. The narrative they're trying to sell is that the state of America's border security has been so thoroughly undermined by leftists and socialists and Democrats who want to rig elections by welcoming illegal immigrants that thousands or tens of thousands of people are literally swarming over the southern border every day raping and killing with impunity and stealing our jobs and diluting our culture and only a wall can stop it. The wall is not about actual, effective border security, it's about selling America on xenophobic panic and anti-progressive propaganda through a manufactured crisis that needs "emergency measures." It's shock doctrine.
teucris 8y ago
Definitely no monolithic opinion but my cohort (i.e. those I speak to regularly about this issue) believe there should be major reforms to vastly simplify legal immigration and enable a clear path to citizenship. You might call this open borders, but that implies a free-for-all. I personally think getting a work visa should be pretty easy, taxes paid by all, and employers should be severely punished for attempting to hire under the table. I think you’re right to say illegal immigration causes a caste system. I think that’s artificially created by our strict immigration policies. We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. There are people who want to pursue a better life by moving here. Why get in the way?
- cheeseomlit 8y ago
  >We need more workers of all skill levels in the US. Do we really though? The actual unemployment rate is about 8% representing over 10 million unemployed Americans, personally I think they should be the priority. I'm also skeptical of expanding our population indefinitely, our infrastructure is already unable to handle the amount of people using it- ask anyone who commutes to work in LA traffic
  - teucris 8y ago
    I think we need to be ensuring there are great jobs for Americans too. I think our economy needs both, and they’re not at odds. But regarding expanding population, I totally agree with your skepticism. I think growth for growth’s sake is the underlying problem here and merits a whole conversation on its own.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      There are jobs that Americans don't want to do. Ex: Nursing. Everyone knows we have a nursing shortage, nurses get paid decently and only need a bachelor's degree (compared to other medical professions which require Masters or higher-levels of Medical School). But Americans as a whole are not training up to be nurses. As such, immigration is the only way we can make up for our shortfall.
cheeseomlit 8y ago
They make their position quite clear when they say things like "But who will do the jobs Americans don't want to do, like picking fruit and cleaning our houses?" It's not just Democrats, both sides are guilty of facilitating this. Nationwide e-verify is a common sense solution that nobody in power seems interested in implementing.
- burfog 8y ago
  Isn't it weird that picking fruit and cleaning our houses are the normal examples? I suspect that "picking fruit" is a dog whistle along the lines of "picking cotton", showing how people actually feel about Mexicans. The same goes for "jobs Americans don't want to do" actually. It's 2019 and some people want slaves, even if it isn't considered acceptable to openly admit this. Much the same applies to "cleaning our houses", but with an extra helping of discrimination against Americans who would be willing to to that. Many of those Americans would be seen as a threat or as a fellow human being, depending on race, but a Mexican who speaks Spanish can be ignored like a Roomba.
- CM30 8y ago
  The 'jobs Americans won't do' thing certainly annoys me as well. Because at the end of the day, no, they will do those jobs. They'll do them when/if the pay, conditions and other aspects of the role become good enough for it to be worth it. If you can't get people to do a job, pay more and offer better perks. If you can't afford to pay more or offer better conditions, well tough luck, it means your business isn't financially feasible to operate in this market. Any company that only functions due to illegal immigration and paying people less than normal wages is morally bankrupt, and shouldn't be around.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    There are some jobs that Americans literally will not do. Another poster here brought up nursing, which does in fact pay well and has good benefits. But no one is training to be a nurse, and so we have a lack of people qualified to do the job. The only solution is to bring in qualified labor, because training the labor force requires years of effort and upending cultural inertia. There are some jobs where I agree, the pay and benefits are not good enough to bring in labor. Using immigration as an excuse to pay people less in those situations is bad and is fixed by ensuring labor laws protect even illegal immigrants and companies that exploit them are punished.

aglavine 8y ago

Drug legalization (regulated) can be a solution. Also, if things start to improve in Mexico migrations will disminish more, although with Lopez Obrador probably things will get worse.

cosmez 8y ago
How is it going to be worse? He's lowering taxes in the border and trying to convince Central American immigrants to stay in Mexico.
- aglavine 8y ago
  He supports Maduro.