4 ms·

Do we not have ample research by now as to the inefficacy and harms of corporal punishment? What serious evidence is there on the other side? It also strikes m

by Buldak 8y ago

Do we not have ample research by now as to the inefficacy and harms of corporal punishment? What serious evidence is there on the other side? It also strikes me as something of a bad joke to suggest that we might have become uncritically prejudiced against violence given America's domestic gun violence and foreign policy. Tolerance of violence is alive and well as far as I can tell.

castlecrasher2 8y ago
I suspect OP meant resolution through violence as in schoolyard fighting, not school shootings.
rjf72 8y ago
Most research on this topic has been done in the field of psychology. There are two problems. The first is a general one with psychology. The replication crisis in psychology started with the discovery that only 36% of studies in reputable journals could be replicated. And unlike psychology studies, that discovery can and has been replicated. What that means is that the wide majority of studies in psychology are, at best, misleading. This is made even worse by the fact that psychology also tends to have evolved into a very homogeneous group of people ideologically, politically, and so on - and that ideology is generally going to be on the opposite ends of topics such as violence as a means of behavior correction. The second is that this is a really hard topic to study well, even if you genuinely wanted to. So for instance one thing you'll find is studies link corporal punishment to increased aggression, violence, and other such behaviors. But what sort of person receives corporal punishment in the first place? This is obviously not some amazing revelation, but there's 'perfect' way to control for these sort of problems. You have to make assumptions and rely on behavioral models and toy experiments. Now enter the quality of science that's ubiquitous in psychology and it's not a good situation. This doesn't mean that corporal punishment is a good idea, but it does mean the 'science' should not be given more weight than it deserves. ---------- Another thing we can do here is look at how the same behavior varies by region. Let's assume that psychology is right and corporal punishment has a causal relationship with violence and other sorts of behavior. In Japan corporal punishment in child rearing is ubiquitous yet violent crime is practically nonexistent. And Japan is not cherry picked, the trend follows throughout most all of Asia. I only mention Japan since I think most people are aware of how incredibly nonviolent the Japanese as individuals are, yet may not be aware of how ubiquitous corporal punishment is. You now suddenly have a problem. You need to explain why corporal punishment on e.g. American children causes violent behavior, yet has no such effect whatsoever on Japanese children.
AnimalMuppet 8y ago
> What serious evidence is there on the other side? I suspect that the sorry state of our schools are at least partly because it is no longer possible to take a kid into the principal's office and paddle them. There's no way to discipline a kid in a way that a kid who doesn't care about school will still want to avoid. Note well my choice of the word "suspect". I do not know of any solid evidence one way or the other.
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  > I suspect that the sorry state of our schools are at least partly because it is no longer possible to take a kid into the principal's office and paddle them. Really ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_...
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    That surprises me. I had presumed that it was illegal everywhere. I presume that it is still very rare, even where legal, for fear of lawsuits.
    - johnchristopher 8y ago
      https://ocrdata.ed.gov/StateNationalEstimations/Estimations_2013_14 https://ocrdata.ed.gov/StateNationalEstimations/Estimations_... > Discipline, Harassment or Bullying, and Restraint and Seclusion > Corporal punishment (It's a spreadsheet file). That's 106,000 student receiving corporal punishment that year. Is that considered very rare ? Also, keep in mind it's still allowed in private schools from 48 states.

by Buldak 8y ago

castlecrasher2 8y ago

I suspect OP meant resolution through violence as in schoolyard fighting, not school shootings.

rjf72 8y ago

Most research on this topic has been done in the field of psychology. There are two problems. The first is a general one with psychology. The replication crisis in psychology started with the discovery that only 36% of studies in reputable journals could be replicated. And unlike psychology studies, that discovery can and has been replicated. What that means is that the wide majority of studies in psychology are, at best, misleading. This is made even worse by the fact that psychology also tends to have evolved into a very homogeneous group of people ideologically, politically, and so on - and that ideology is generally going to be on the opposite ends of topics such as violence as a means of behavior correction. The second is that this is a really hard topic to study well, even if you genuinely wanted to. So for instance one thing you'll find is studies link corporal punishment to increased aggression, violence, and other such behaviors. But what sort of person receives corporal punishment in the first place? This is obviously not some amazing revelation, but there's 'perfect' way to control for these sort of problems. You have to make assumptions and rely on behavioral models and toy experiments. Now enter the quality of science that's ubiquitous in psychology and it's not a good situation. This doesn't mean that corporal punishment is a good idea, but it does mean the 'science' should not be given more weight than it deserves. ---------- Another thing we can do here is look at how the same behavior varies by region. Let's assume that psychology is right and corporal punishment has a causal relationship with violence and other sorts of behavior. In Japan corporal punishment in child rearing is ubiquitous yet violent crime is practically nonexistent. And Japan is not cherry picked, the trend follows throughout most all of Asia. I only mention Japan since I think most people are aware of how incredibly nonviolent the Japanese as individuals are, yet may not be aware of how ubiquitous corporal punishment is. You now suddenly have a problem. You need to explain why corporal punishment on e.g. American children causes violent behavior, yet has no such effect whatsoever on Japanese children.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago

> What serious evidence is there on the other side? I suspect that the sorry state of our schools are at least partly because it is no longer possible to take a kid into the principal's office and paddle them. There's no way to discipline a kid in a way that a kid who doesn't care about school will still want to avoid. Note well my choice of the word "suspect". I do not know of any solid evidence one way or the other.

johnchristopher 8y ago
> I suspect that the sorry state of our schools are at least partly because it is no longer possible to take a kid into the principal's office and paddle them. Really ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_...
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  That surprises me. I had presumed that it was illegal everywhere. I presume that it is still very rare, even where legal, for fear of lawsuits.
  - johnchristopher 8y ago
    https://ocrdata.ed.gov/StateNationalEstimations/Estimations_2013_14 https://ocrdata.ed.gov/StateNationalEstimations/Estimations_... > Discipline, Harassment or Bullying, and Restraint and Seclusion > Corporal punishment (It's a spreadsheet file). That's 106,000 student receiving corporal punishment that year. Is that considered very rare ? Also, keep in mind it's still allowed in private schools from 48 states.