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Some people misunderstood that the $3B was a credit, not real cash being gifted to Amazon. But even among people who understand the nature of a tax credit, we f

Some people misunderstood that the $3B was a credit, not real cash being gifted to Amazon. But even among people who understand the nature of a tax credit, we felt that NYC should not forego revenue that another company would have to pay. In other words, the city has enough bargaining power to collect all the taxes that it would be owed. Amazon can flounce and run off to Virginia or Nashville or wherever, but NYC will remain the heartbeat of the US economy without this deal. New York metro is consistently the top contributor to GDP by a factor of two over LA. The Bay Area is not even top three on that list, at about 1/8 the contribution of New York. Let the cities that are struggling cut sweetheart tax breaks to speculate on future break even. If you want to bring your business to NYC, you pay business class prices for the privilege. As a property owner and taxpayer in Manhattan, believe me—that’s the deal we’re all taking for access to this vibrant and exceptional globally-connected and hard-charging economy.

whatok 8y ago
Should New York get rid of all business tax incentives? A majority of that $3bn was from existing programs available to any qualifying business.
- nihonde 8y ago
  The $500M exceptional credit was the issue. That’s a lot of money.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    Please. No one was talking about the 500m. Everyone was talking about a 3bn giveaway. While some people understood what was happening, most opposition intentionally confused onlookers. And even with the misinformation, the deal was still popular, particularly among Queens residents & PoC.
  - whatok 8y ago
    No one opposing Amazon actually pieced out that portion of it as their reason for opposing it. Be honest. If the $500mm is the real beef with the whole thing then break it down vs jobs: $50mm/yr vs 25,000 jobs paying an average of $150k/yr for a total of $3.75bn of taxable income. At New York State's lowest tax bracket of 4%, that's $150mm. At New York State's highest tax bracket of 8.84%, that's over $330mm.
    - anth_anm 8y ago
      > then break it down vs jobs No. No giveaways like this. None. Zero. If Amazon wants welfare for jobs, then tell them to screw off and let another company come in that will employ people without handouts.
      - cthalupa 8y ago
        2.5 billion of the "welfare for jobs" is open to any company coming that meets the requirements of the Excelsior program. So if you want companies to come in without tax incentives, you probably need to go to your congresspeople and get that program turned off.
        anth_anm 8y ago
        People keep saying this like it's an absurd proposition that no one would be fine with. Also you could restrict the programs a whole lot more, even if you think they should keep existing.
        cthalupa 8y ago
        I have no real position on whether or not it should exist. I don't know if the positive impact outweighs the cost. But no one in here is making a strong argument for it either way, and neither are you. People can say that Amazon has to go somewhere regardless, so everyone should band together and say no subsidies are ignoring the fact that the subsidies might be what makes it economically possible for Amazon to create these jobs in the first place. Maybe the government gives Amazon $5, they turn it into $30, and Amazon pays the government back $7.50. Or the sum of the economic development in the area results in the government getting back $7.50 for the $5 they spent. And by give, I mean 'Doesn't charge Amazon for come tax season'. Or maybe the government doesn't give Amazon anything, and Amazon or the sum of economic activity still means the government gets $7.50, and they net the whole amount instead of $2.50. I don't know, I'm not an economist or versed enough in the specifics here to have any real idea. But either option is possible, as well as a broad variety of others, but the a significant portion of arguments in here seem to be 'Businesses should never get subsidies because I don't think they should/Bezos is the richest man in the world he can pay for stuff" or "lol the stupid liberals shot themselves in the foot."
  - Velchronus 8y ago
    The 500M was for fixing up the eroding waterfront where they were building the campus. The alternative was allowing the damage to continue or fix it at a higher price themselves.
    - nihonde 8y ago
      I don’t want to pay for that either way. Let other developers do it. LIC is gentrifying anyway.
kec 8y ago
How can the Bay Area have less than 1/8th the GDP of NYC when Apple’s revenue alone (~300B) is over 1/3rd of NYC’s GDP (~800B per Wikipedia)?
- madcowherd 8y ago
  Is that 300B Apple's global revenue? If so, I'd imagine there's your answer. Prior Apple fancy accounting tricks had all revenue funneled through the friendliest tax haven until they got called on it. I'd imagine though, only US revenue gets claimed in CA.
- danmaz74 8y ago
  Even without considering Tha accounting tricks, a lot of that revenue gets generated where production happens, by the distribution network, etc etc.
deminature 8y ago
Unfortunately people who misunderstood Amazon wasn't being gifted $3B includes the recently elected congressperson for the area: https://mobile.twitter.com/qtrresearch/status/1096181157316780037 https://mobile.twitter.com/qtrresearch/status/10961811573167... EDIT: Congressperson for an adjacent area, not for that area.
- untog 8y ago
  You see this a lot because conservatives have a hate-on for AOC, but she's not the congressperson for the area Amazon were building in. Queens has a lot of congressional districts. She also had very little to nothing to do with the decision, but again, you wouldn't know that from watching the conservative commentary.
  - deminature 8y ago
    My mistake, I was under the impression she was the congressperson for the area. She was a prominent critic of the project, and factored into the failure to some extent. I also don't consider myself to be conservative, just disappointed in the grandstanding against the project.
  - anth_anm 8y ago
    She's dumb and doesn't understand that giving away 3 billion to a company is good and also tax credits aren't giveaways because reasons. I'm smart and don't understand districting.
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      Her district is like a mile away from the proposed Amazon office, she has the bully pulpit of the nation 1000x more than any other congressperson in the area does, she talked a lot about the Amazon plan, and celebrated helping destroy it. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring up her incorrect understanding of how tax credits work. > "We were subsidizing those jobs. The city was paying for those jobs. So frankly, if we're willing to give away away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest $3 billion in our district ourselves if we want to. We could hire out more teachers, we can fix our subways, we can put a lot of people to work for that money if we wanted to." https://www.nbcnews.com/video/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-reacts-to-amazon-nixing-long-island-city-campus-1442730051615 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-react...
anth_anm 8y ago
> Some people misunderstood that the $3B was a credit, not real cash being gifted to Amazon. If the government gives me a 25k deduction on my taxes, does that not end up as money in my pocket? I don't understand why this is different for Amazon? How is being able to do business without paying the associated taxes not a giveaway?
CoolGuySteve 8y ago
Everything you said about NYC really applies to Manhattan. The point of the incentive is to encourage development outside of Manhattan.

whatok 8y ago

Should New York get rid of all business tax incentives? A majority of that $3bn was from existing programs available to any qualifying business.

nihonde 8y ago
The $500M exceptional credit was the issue. That’s a lot of money.
- Eridrus 8y ago
  Please. No one was talking about the 500m. Everyone was talking about a 3bn giveaway. While some people understood what was happening, most opposition intentionally confused onlookers. And even with the misinformation, the deal was still popular, particularly among Queens residents & PoC.
- whatok 8y ago
  No one opposing Amazon actually pieced out that portion of it as their reason for opposing it. Be honest. If the $500mm is the real beef with the whole thing then break it down vs jobs: $50mm/yr vs 25,000 jobs paying an average of $150k/yr for a total of $3.75bn of taxable income. At New York State's lowest tax bracket of 4%, that's $150mm. At New York State's highest tax bracket of 8.84%, that's over $330mm.
  - anth_anm 8y ago
    > then break it down vs jobs No. No giveaways like this. None. Zero. If Amazon wants welfare for jobs, then tell them to screw off and let another company come in that will employ people without handouts.
    - cthalupa 8y ago
      2.5 billion of the "welfare for jobs" is open to any company coming that meets the requirements of the Excelsior program. So if you want companies to come in without tax incentives, you probably need to go to your congresspeople and get that program turned off.
      - anth_anm 8y ago
        People keep saying this like it's an absurd proposition that no one would be fine with. Also you could restrict the programs a whole lot more, even if you think they should keep existing.
        cthalupa 8y ago
        I have no real position on whether or not it should exist. I don't know if the positive impact outweighs the cost. But no one in here is making a strong argument for it either way, and neither are you. People can say that Amazon has to go somewhere regardless, so everyone should band together and say no subsidies are ignoring the fact that the subsidies might be what makes it economically possible for Amazon to create these jobs in the first place. Maybe the government gives Amazon $5, they turn it into $30, and Amazon pays the government back $7.50. Or the sum of the economic development in the area results in the government getting back $7.50 for the $5 they spent. And by give, I mean 'Doesn't charge Amazon for come tax season'. Or maybe the government doesn't give Amazon anything, and Amazon or the sum of economic activity still means the government gets $7.50, and they net the whole amount instead of $2.50. I don't know, I'm not an economist or versed enough in the specifics here to have any real idea. But either option is possible, as well as a broad variety of others, but the a significant portion of arguments in here seem to be 'Businesses should never get subsidies because I don't think they should/Bezos is the richest man in the world he can pay for stuff" or "lol the stupid liberals shot themselves in the foot."
- Velchronus 8y ago
  The 500M was for fixing up the eroding waterfront where they were building the campus. The alternative was allowing the damage to continue or fix it at a higher price themselves.
  - nihonde 8y ago
    I don’t want to pay for that either way. Let other developers do it. LIC is gentrifying anyway.

kec 8y ago

How can the Bay Area have less than 1/8th the GDP of NYC when Apple’s revenue alone (~300B) is over 1/3rd of NYC’s GDP (~800B per Wikipedia)?

madcowherd 8y ago
Is that 300B Apple's global revenue? If so, I'd imagine there's your answer. Prior Apple fancy accounting tricks had all revenue funneled through the friendliest tax haven until they got called on it. I'd imagine though, only US revenue gets claimed in CA.
danmaz74 8y ago
Even without considering Tha accounting tricks, a lot of that revenue gets generated where production happens, by the distribution network, etc etc.

deminature 8y ago

Unfortunately people who misunderstood Amazon wasn't being gifted $3B includes the recently elected congressperson for the area: https://mobile.twitter.com/qtrresearch/status/1096181157316780037 https://mobile.twitter.com/qtrresearch/status/10961811573167... EDIT: Congressperson for an adjacent area, not for that area.

untog 8y ago
You see this a lot because conservatives have a hate-on for AOC, but she's not the congressperson for the area Amazon were building in. Queens has a lot of congressional districts. She also had very little to nothing to do with the decision, but again, you wouldn't know that from watching the conservative commentary.
- deminature 8y ago
  My mistake, I was under the impression she was the congressperson for the area. She was a prominent critic of the project, and factored into the failure to some extent. I also don't consider myself to be conservative, just disappointed in the grandstanding against the project.
- anth_anm 8y ago
  She's dumb and doesn't understand that giving away 3 billion to a company is good and also tax credits aren't giveaways because reasons. I'm smart and don't understand districting.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Her district is like a mile away from the proposed Amazon office, she has the bully pulpit of the nation 1000x more than any other congressperson in the area does, she talked a lot about the Amazon plan, and celebrated helping destroy it. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring up her incorrect understanding of how tax credits work. > "We were subsidizing those jobs. The city was paying for those jobs. So frankly, if we're willing to give away away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest $3 billion in our district ourselves if we want to. We could hire out more teachers, we can fix our subways, we can put a lot of people to work for that money if we wanted to." https://www.nbcnews.com/video/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-reacts-to-amazon-nixing-long-island-city-campus-1442730051615 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-react...

anth_anm 8y ago

> Some people misunderstood that the $3B was a credit, not real cash being gifted to Amazon. If the government gives me a 25k deduction on my taxes, does that not end up as money in my pocket? I don't understand why this is different for Amazon? How is being able to do business without paying the associated taxes not a giveaway?

CoolGuySteve 8y ago

Everything you said about NYC really applies to Manhattan. The point of the incentive is to encourage development outside of Manhattan.