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I have gone through the existential angst that I read in your comment. The ugly depression, the hopelessness. I understand that outcome is a very real possibi

by moosey 8y ago

I have gone through the existential angst that I read in your comment. The ugly depression, the hopelessness. I understand that outcome is a very real possibility. I also believe that humanity will defeat climate change, and before we lose all major megafauna on the planet. I think that this is the most radical position to take: a faith in the ability of humanity, after thousands of years following the path of exploitation, changing to the path of restoration. Perhaps it's because of the changes that I'm willing to make, and that could be my folly. I see highly compact cities feeding a world of vegans. I see us doing everything in our power to restore the natural world to its splendor. The zeitgeist that we must shift to is alien and extreme to modern cultures, primarily because we have become so accustomed to the exploitation of people and nature that escaping it seems unecessary to many, and therefore impossible. I have a sense that it will happen. I have a sense that people are tired of this life, and even if they must themselves not live in nature, the act of restoring it will bring meaning to a broken society. For the first time since we left the forests, we will return to the path of peace.

SuddsMcDuff 8y ago
That's a lovely thought, but I don't think it's based in reality. Change, by it's nature, is disruptive, painful, sometimes unbearable. Human nature is to avoid pain. In all of human history, I'm not aware that the human race has ever collectively, proactively changed it's behavour in the way you describe, and I see no evidence that we'll suddenly start now. Ultimately the changes will happen, but they will happen in the same way they have always happened: mother nature will compel us to change by making us suffer.
- moosey 8y ago
  I agree that we'll have to have an "Oh shit" moment and that moment will have to happen in the United States for things to happen. I don't deny there will be pain. I don't deny that time is short. I just think that we can move towards being a more perfect species, and that it will soon happen.
  - SuddsMcDuff 8y ago
    I do respect, even admire the optimists view on this. It's not that I don't have faith in humanity, it's that I do have faith in nature, and I have observed how she works.
    - moosey 8y ago
      I absolutely agree with you. My optimism is strained by what has already been lost, and the repercussions will be severe. We will have to start accepting some of the rules of nature, death, and population that the rest of the species of this planet live under, and that is going to be extremely problematic. There will be death and despair, some of which we are going to have to accept as inevitable. But there is already death and despair. We kill 9 billion animals in the United States for food supply each year. There are more humans slaves now than at any time in human history. We've lost so much wildlife. The massive loss of arthropod life fills me with shock and dismay. And yet, with suffering beyond suffering, I have a sense. I have no proof, it could all very well be hopeless, but I have a sense that people are ready to stop the exploitation that led us here.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
Ask yourself: are you merely hoping that someone else will solve the problem for you so you don't have to make any sacrifices?
- moosey 8y ago
  I am a vegan. This is the first and most important sacrifice. I live in WA, eastern side. The fact that I live in a house is problematic, but we are keeping it cold inside. I must wear a jacket inside my house right now to be comfortable. This is almost nothing compared to having been a vegan for the last 15 years. I drive less than 3k miles a year, work from home, and I'm going to start applying the wealth that I have to sealing up my home insulation-wise (it's old). This is almost literally nothing compared to having been a vegan for the last 15 years. I have made a vow to never do personal travel by plane again, and will never cross an ocean for the rest of my life. My company has me going across the country twice a year for meetings, but they are about to reduce it to one, I think, and if we improve our train systems, I'm very happy to do a two day train ride to get there, if at all. My wife and I love animals, and it's the main reason that we have a house. We will not be replacing them as they die. Ultimately my goal is to pay off the current old house that I have, and then either try to fill it with far more people, or have it demolished as I move into an apartment in town, which is a far more efficient way of life. Almost all of my conversations discuss climate change in some way. In order to get the political pressure that we need to fight this, our culture must change. These comments are part of that key work. I am not waiting for anyone. I am trying desperately to walk a path without exploitation, and it's incredibly difficult. I cannot expect my family to walk the path to the extent that I desire either, but we are all vegan and don't travel long distance, and these are the most important changes individuals can make. You can rail upon my imagined hypocrisies if you desire. You can also join me if you wish.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    I didn't mean to imply you were definitely a hypocrite, I merely meant to point out that all the wishing and desiring for a better world is meaningless if you are not willing to take action toward creating it yourself. As is often the case with forum posts, it was meant just as much, if not more, for the general audience as it was for you in particular.

by moosey 8y ago

SuddsMcDuff 8y ago

That's a lovely thought, but I don't think it's based in reality. Change, by it's nature, is disruptive, painful, sometimes unbearable. Human nature is to avoid pain. In all of human history, I'm not aware that the human race has ever collectively, proactively changed it's behavour in the way you describe, and I see no evidence that we'll suddenly start now. Ultimately the changes will happen, but they will happen in the same way they have always happened: mother nature will compel us to change by making us suffer.

moosey 8y ago
I agree that we'll have to have an "Oh shit" moment and that moment will have to happen in the United States for things to happen. I don't deny there will be pain. I don't deny that time is short. I just think that we can move towards being a more perfect species, and that it will soon happen.
- SuddsMcDuff 8y ago
  I do respect, even admire the optimists view on this. It's not that I don't have faith in humanity, it's that I do have faith in nature, and I have observed how she works.
  - moosey 8y ago
    I absolutely agree with you. My optimism is strained by what has already been lost, and the repercussions will be severe. We will have to start accepting some of the rules of nature, death, and population that the rest of the species of this planet live under, and that is going to be extremely problematic. There will be death and despair, some of which we are going to have to accept as inevitable. But there is already death and despair. We kill 9 billion animals in the United States for food supply each year. There are more humans slaves now than at any time in human history. We've lost so much wildlife. The massive loss of arthropod life fills me with shock and dismay. And yet, with suffering beyond suffering, I have a sense. I have no proof, it could all very well be hopeless, but I have a sense that people are ready to stop the exploitation that led us here.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

Ask yourself: are you merely hoping that someone else will solve the problem for you so you don't have to make any sacrifices?

moosey 8y ago
I am a vegan. This is the first and most important sacrifice. I live in WA, eastern side. The fact that I live in a house is problematic, but we are keeping it cold inside. I must wear a jacket inside my house right now to be comfortable. This is almost nothing compared to having been a vegan for the last 15 years. I drive less than 3k miles a year, work from home, and I'm going to start applying the wealth that I have to sealing up my home insulation-wise (it's old). This is almost literally nothing compared to having been a vegan for the last 15 years. I have made a vow to never do personal travel by plane again, and will never cross an ocean for the rest of my life. My company has me going across the country twice a year for meetings, but they are about to reduce it to one, I think, and if we improve our train systems, I'm very happy to do a two day train ride to get there, if at all. My wife and I love animals, and it's the main reason that we have a house. We will not be replacing them as they die. Ultimately my goal is to pay off the current old house that I have, and then either try to fill it with far more people, or have it demolished as I move into an apartment in town, which is a far more efficient way of life. Almost all of my conversations discuss climate change in some way. In order to get the political pressure that we need to fight this, our culture must change. These comments are part of that key work. I am not waiting for anyone. I am trying desperately to walk a path without exploitation, and it's incredibly difficult. I cannot expect my family to walk the path to the extent that I desire either, but we are all vegan and don't travel long distance, and these are the most important changes individuals can make. You can rail upon my imagined hypocrisies if you desire. You can also join me if you wish.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  I didn't mean to imply you were definitely a hypocrite, I merely meant to point out that all the wishing and desiring for a better world is meaningless if you are not willing to take action toward creating it yourself. As is often the case with forum posts, it was meant just as much, if not more, for the general audience as it was for you in particular.