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I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for-taxpayers-in-new

by whack 8y ago

I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for-taxpayers-in-new-york-and-virginia-2018-11-14 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for... > For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. > New York State had also promised a $505 million capital grant to reimburse Amazon for the costs associated with building its office space. > Amazon also planned to take advantage of incentives through New York City’s Industrial and Commercial Abatement Program and New York City’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP). Unlike the incentive offered by state officials, these city programs are available to any businesses that meet their specific requirements. Tax breaks through REAP, for instance, could have added up to $900 million. Most of the subsidies are coming from existing programs which every company can take advantage of. The only special treatment Amazon is getting is the $500M mentioned above. Which works out to $2000 per job, over 10 years. An amount which is recouped in a few months of NYC city taxes alone - a tax which most other cities do not have at all. I can see why people outside of NYC would be cheering for this. But it's insanity for locals to be celebrating shooting themselves in the foot. HQ2 would have cemented New York's place as the country's #2 tech hub after silicon valley. Over the next 20 years, New York could have even challenged and supplanted silicon valley. For tech workers in the city, it would have given them greater bargaining power when negotiating compensation with their existing or new employers. And for startups, it would have offered another source of employees to poach from, and a company that could easily acquire them. New York has always succeeded because it was a pragmatic city. But this entire debacle is the kind of political dysfunction that I would have expected from San Francisco, not NYC.

whatok 8y ago
It's really sad that this point has been lost in all of this. Somehow existing programs got spun into the city/state hand delivering a $3bn check to Bezos. Really sad.
- downandout 8y ago
  Many people form their political opinions these days based on sound bites and tweets. When the self-described socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tweets to her 3 million followers asking “Why should corporations that contribute nothing to the pot be in a position to take billions from the public? [1],” by and large her followers don’t ask whether or not that is actually happening. They simply take it as fact and act accordingly. The masses tend to believe simple things told to them by charismatic people, even if those things are grossly misleading or flat out wrong. [1] https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1096194174301495296?s=21 https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1096194174301495296?s=21
- mcphage 8y ago
  Because if not for Bezos, those funds would have gone to other companies—some of which might have actually needed them, and weren’t just using their clout to try and get free cash while floating on billions in profit.
  - whack 8y ago
    So now we're going to blame Bezos for using a incentive-program the way it was expressly meant to be used? Perhaps we should also start shaming white collar professionals who take advantage of 401k plans and Mortgage Interest deductions. If they didn't try to reduce their tax bill, that money could have gone to others who actually needed them. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
    - dingaling 8y ago
      > Don't hate the player, hate the game Without the players, the game ends. Amazon can afford to pay its own costs many times over. Many SMEs cannot. I'd have had a lot of respect for Amazon had they just chosen a site on logistical criteria and built it out of pocket. Instead, I despise them even more than before.
      - whatok 8y ago
        These tax breaks existed long before Amazon planned on moving to New York. SMEs could and still can utilize them if they choose to do so. There's nothing that prevents them from doing so and they also have more incentives available to them than larger businesses.
sys_64738 8y ago
It doesn't matter how much money Amazon got as it's the perception of the fact they are getting a tax break which is why it's shocking. Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding. It's the richest company in the world so why the heck do New Yorkers need to hand over their cash to bring them the Queens?
- vixen99 8y ago
  “It is a dark day when small retailers in NYC are denied the opportunity to pay the expenses of their largest competitor.” https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/
  - cthalupa 8y ago
    Arguments about the merits of something should probably be more in depth than just witty quotes.
- whack 8y ago
  For the same reason you hand over your cash in order to buy stuff on amazon.com or run things on AWS. Not because Amazon deserves your money, but because it's in your own best interests to do so. Since you seem so opposed to tax breaks for big corporations, have you also lobbied for repealing the Excelsior and REAP programs? Or do you get upset only when these programs are applied to Amazon?
  - Zecar 8y ago
    You really truly believe the biggest company on Earth deserves to be subsidized by taxpayers?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I voluntarily hand over my money to AWS for them to provide a product. The government is not forcing me to hand money to them.
  - nihonde 8y ago
    To carry out your analogy, you order from Amazon because they’ll deliver for you. In this case, New Yorkers suspected that the jobs would go to outsiders, the property values would skyrocket and push locals out, and Amazon’s nasty history of vertical integration would be a threat to existing business owners. This deal was scuttled by the people who represent regular, working class Queens residents—not the people who saw dollar signs and dreamed of overflowing NYC tax coffers. Cuomo and DiBlasio had probably already promised those tax revenues to their buddies for all kinds of sure-to-fail projects.
anth_anm 8y ago
> But it's insanity for locals to be celebrating shooting themselves in the foot By preventing the massive rent increases and forcing out of the locals that Amazon will bring? Damn, that must suck.

by whack 8y ago

whatok 8y ago

It's really sad that this point has been lost in all of this. Somehow existing programs got spun into the city/state hand delivering a $3bn check to Bezos. Really sad.

downandout 8y ago
Many people form their political opinions these days based on sound bites and tweets. When the self-described socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tweets to her 3 million followers asking “Why should corporations that contribute nothing to the pot be in a position to take billions from the public? [1],” by and large her followers don’t ask whether or not that is actually happening. They simply take it as fact and act accordingly. The masses tend to believe simple things told to them by charismatic people, even if those things are grossly misleading or flat out wrong. [1] https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1096194174301495296?s=21 https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1096194174301495296?s=21
mcphage 8y ago
Because if not for Bezos, those funds would have gone to other companies—some of which might have actually needed them, and weren’t just using their clout to try and get free cash while floating on billions in profit.
- whack 8y ago
  So now we're going to blame Bezos for using a incentive-program the way it was expressly meant to be used? Perhaps we should also start shaming white collar professionals who take advantage of 401k plans and Mortgage Interest deductions. If they didn't try to reduce their tax bill, that money could have gone to others who actually needed them. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    > Don't hate the player, hate the game Without the players, the game ends. Amazon can afford to pay its own costs many times over. Many SMEs cannot. I'd have had a lot of respect for Amazon had they just chosen a site on logistical criteria and built it out of pocket. Instead, I despise them even more than before.
    - whatok 8y ago
      These tax breaks existed long before Amazon planned on moving to New York. SMEs could and still can utilize them if they choose to do so. There's nothing that prevents them from doing so and they also have more incentives available to them than larger businesses.

sys_64738 8y ago

It doesn't matter how much money Amazon got as it's the perception of the fact they are getting a tax break which is why it's shocking. Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding. It's the richest company in the world so why the heck do New Yorkers need to hand over their cash to bring them the Queens?

vixen99 8y ago
“It is a dark day when small retailers in NYC are denied the opportunity to pay the expenses of their largest competitor.” https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/
- cthalupa 8y ago
  Arguments about the merits of something should probably be more in depth than just witty quotes.
whack 8y ago
For the same reason you hand over your cash in order to buy stuff on amazon.com or run things on AWS. Not because Amazon deserves your money, but because it's in your own best interests to do so. Since you seem so opposed to tax breaks for big corporations, have you also lobbied for repealing the Excelsior and REAP programs? Or do you get upset only when these programs are applied to Amazon?
- Zecar 8y ago
  You really truly believe the biggest company on Earth deserves to be subsidized by taxpayers?
- scarface74 8y ago
  I voluntarily hand over my money to AWS for them to provide a product. The government is not forcing me to hand money to them.
- nihonde 8y ago
  To carry out your analogy, you order from Amazon because they’ll deliver for you. In this case, New Yorkers suspected that the jobs would go to outsiders, the property values would skyrocket and push locals out, and Amazon’s nasty history of vertical integration would be a threat to existing business owners. This deal was scuttled by the people who represent regular, working class Queens residents—not the people who saw dollar signs and dreamed of overflowing NYC tax coffers. Cuomo and DiBlasio had probably already promised those tax revenues to their buddies for all kinds of sure-to-fail projects.

anth_anm 8y ago

> But it's insanity for locals to be celebrating shooting themselves in the foot By preventing the massive rent increases and forcing out of the locals that Amazon will bring? Damn, that must suck.