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Sports stadiums and the Olympics generate temporary jobs and generally do not have the same economic impact of 25k jobs paying 150k over ten years. Amazon's tax

by whatok 8y ago

Sports stadiums and the Olympics generate temporary jobs and generally do not have the same economic impact of 25k jobs paying 150k over ten years. Amazon's tax breaks were tied to headcount so it's hard to see how the city would be a loser in this case.

minikites 8y ago
Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...
- whatok 8y ago
  Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.
  - mcphage 8y ago
    The point isn’t whether Amazon should or shouldn’t be paying a Federal taxes, it’s whether—given this prior behavior—we would expect them to pay state or city taxes, instead of finding or creating a loophole to get out of them.
    - whatok 8y ago
      There are a lot of large businesses headquartered in New York. They all seem to be pretty smart. If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well.
      - eric_h 8y ago
        Most of those large businesses didn't preface the building of their headquarters with a very public dog and pony show of shopping for tax subsidies. Lots of shady tax related shenanigans happen in NYC, particularly in real estate development. Sometimes they get called out, and sometimes they go unnoticed for years/decades until new information draws the public eye to them.
      - mcphage 8y ago
        > If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well. Given the response to Amazon doing so is "how dare you complain about Amazon using these loopholes, it's their fiduciary duty to bilk the government out of all the money it can", I don't think there would be widespread publicity to other companies using loopholes. Instead we'd have people like you trying to shut up anyone talking about them.
        whatok 8y ago
        I'm not trying to shut anyone up. Please don't be rude. I'm wondering why all the blame is directed at Amazon when they sought to take advantage of (mostly) pre-existing programs. If the problem people have is with tax subsidies in general then isn't the government the real issue here?
        mcphage 8y ago
        > I'm wondering why all the blame is directed at Amazon The first step is recognizing that there's a problem. > If the problem people have is with tax subsidies in general then isn't the government the real issue here? Maybe the problem people have isn't with tax subsidies. Maybe their problem is who the subsidies are being given to? People are realizing that Amazon isn't a good corporate citizen, and I don't think anybody thinks Amazon needs these subsidies.
        tlb 8y ago
        It's inevitable that tax subsidies, if available, will go to companies that can negotiate the best for them. Large enterprises have more lobbying power, and more ability to play cities against each other. So I think there's little hope of city officials finding the best corporate citizens to subsidize.
oarsinsync 8y ago
> 25k jobs paying 150k I've seen a few people make this remark, on the assumption that every single job was going to be a high paying job. I believe this is an assumption as I don't recall seeing anything from Amazon stating that they were intending to do this either. A citation would be helpful for this position.
- whatok 8y ago
  You've seen a few people reference this because it was in a widely circulated press release by the company itself. https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-details/amazon-selects-new-york-city-and-northern-virginia-new https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-det... Third bullet under Amazon in Long Island City in New York City: Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion based on the company creating 25,000 jobs in Long Island City. This includes a refundable tax credit through New York State’s Excelsior Program of up to $1.2 billion calculated as a percentage of the salaries Amazon expects to pay employees over the next 10 years, which equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000; and a cash grant from Empire State Development of $325 million based on the square footage of buildings occupied in the next 10 years. Amazon will receive these incentives over the next decade based on the incremental jobs it creates each year and as it reaches building occupancy targets. The company will separately apply for as-of-right incentives including New York City’s Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) and New York City’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP).
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    Thank you!

by whatok 8y ago

minikites 8y ago

Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...

whatok 8y ago
Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.
- mcphage 8y ago
  The point isn’t whether Amazon should or shouldn’t be paying a Federal taxes, it’s whether—given this prior behavior—we would expect them to pay state or city taxes, instead of finding or creating a loophole to get out of them.
  - whatok 8y ago
    There are a lot of large businesses headquartered in New York. They all seem to be pretty smart. If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well.
    - eric_h 8y ago
      Most of those large businesses didn't preface the building of their headquarters with a very public dog and pony show of shopping for tax subsidies. Lots of shady tax related shenanigans happen in NYC, particularly in real estate development. Sometimes they get called out, and sometimes they go unnoticed for years/decades until new information draws the public eye to them.
    - mcphage 8y ago
      > If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well. Given the response to Amazon doing so is "how dare you complain about Amazon using these loopholes, it's their fiduciary duty to bilk the government out of all the money it can", I don't think there would be widespread publicity to other companies using loopholes. Instead we'd have people like you trying to shut up anyone talking about them.
      - whatok 8y ago
        I'm not trying to shut anyone up. Please don't be rude. I'm wondering why all the blame is directed at Amazon when they sought to take advantage of (mostly) pre-existing programs. If the problem people have is with tax subsidies in general then isn't the government the real issue here?
        mcphage 8y ago
        > I'm wondering why all the blame is directed at Amazon The first step is recognizing that there's a problem. > If the problem people have is with tax subsidies in general then isn't the government the real issue here? Maybe the problem people have isn't with tax subsidies. Maybe their problem is who the subsidies are being given to? People are realizing that Amazon isn't a good corporate citizen, and I don't think anybody thinks Amazon needs these subsidies.
        tlb 8y ago
        It's inevitable that tax subsidies, if available, will go to companies that can negotiate the best for them. Large enterprises have more lobbying power, and more ability to play cities against each other. So I think there's little hope of city officials finding the best corporate citizens to subsidize.

oarsinsync 8y ago

> 25k jobs paying 150k I've seen a few people make this remark, on the assumption that every single job was going to be a high paying job. I believe this is an assumption as I don't recall seeing anything from Amazon stating that they were intending to do this either. A citation would be helpful for this position.

whatok 8y ago
You've seen a few people reference this because it was in a widely circulated press release by the company itself. https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-details/amazon-selects-new-york-city-and-northern-virginia-new https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-det... Third bullet under Amazon in Long Island City in New York City: Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion based on the company creating 25,000 jobs in Long Island City. This includes a refundable tax credit through New York State’s Excelsior Program of up to $1.2 billion calculated as a percentage of the salaries Amazon expects to pay employees over the next 10 years, which equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000; and a cash grant from Empire State Development of $325 million based on the square footage of buildings occupied in the next 10 years. Amazon will receive these incentives over the next decade based on the incremental jobs it creates each year and as it reaches building occupancy targets. The company will separately apply for as-of-right incentives including New York City’s Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) and New York City’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP).
- oarsinsync 8y ago
  Thank you!