5 ms·

Over some years, Amazon was to pay some $X in taxes. But they were given a break to pay $3b less assuming some goals are met. The city receives $X - $3b. Now t

Over some years, Amazon was to pay some $X in taxes. But they were given a break to pay $3b less assuming some goals are met. The city receives $X - $3b. Now the city receives $0.

minikites 8y ago
You're assuming $X was larger than $3 billion, which isn't a given. Look at sports stadium deals, hosting the Olympics, or Wisconsin's giveaway to Foxconn. The city/state budget is usually the loser in these deals.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- whatok 8y ago
  Sports stadiums and the Olympics generate temporary jobs and generally do not have the same economic impact of 25k jobs paying 150k over ten years. Amazon's tax breaks were tied to headcount so it's hard to see how the city would be a loser in this case.
  - minikites 8y ago
    Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...
    - whatok 8y ago
      Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.
      - mcphage 8y ago
        The point isn’t whether Amazon should or shouldn’t be paying a Federal taxes, it’s whether—given this prior behavior—we would expect them to pay state or city taxes, instead of finding or creating a loophole to get out of them.
        whatok 8y ago
        There are a lot of large businesses headquartered in New York. They all seem to be pretty smart. If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well.
        eric_h 8y ago
        Most of those large businesses didn't preface the building of their headquarters with a very public dog and pony show of shopping for tax subsidies. Lots of shady tax related shenanigans happen in NYC, particularly in real estate development. Sometimes they get called out, and sometimes they go unnoticed for years/decades until new information draws the public eye to them.
        mcphage 8y ago
        > If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well. Given the response to Amazon doing so is "how dare you complain about Amazon using these loopholes, it's their fiduciary duty to bilk the government out of all the money it can", I don't think there would be widespread publicity to other companies using loopholes. Instead we'd have people like you trying to shut up anyone talking about them.
        whatok 8y ago
        I'm not trying to shut anyone up. Please don't be rude. I'm wondering why all the blame is directed at Amazon when they sought to take advantage of (mostly) pre-existing programs. If the problem people have is with tax subsidies in general then isn't the government the real issue here?
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    > 25k jobs paying 150k I've seen a few people make this remark, on the assumption that every single job was going to be a high paying job. I believe this is an assumption as I don't recall seeing anything from Amazon stating that they were intending to do this either. A citation would be helpful for this position.
    - whatok 8y ago
      You've seen a few people reference this because it was in a widely circulated press release by the company itself. https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-details/amazon-selects-new-york-city-and-northern-virginia-new https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-det... Third bullet under Amazon in Long Island City in New York City: Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion based on the company creating 25,000 jobs in Long Island City. This includes a refundable tax credit through New York State’s Excelsior Program of up to $1.2 billion calculated as a percentage of the salaries Amazon expects to pay employees over the next 10 years, which equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000; and a cash grant from Empire State Development of $325 million based on the square footage of buildings occupied in the next 10 years. Amazon will receive these incentives over the next decade based on the incremental jobs it creates each year and as it reaches building occupancy targets. The company will separately apply for as-of-right incentives including New York City’s Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) and New York City’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP).
      - oarsinsync 8y ago
        Thank you!
Slartie 8y ago
But don't forget that they also need to invest $0 into additional infrastructure necessary to accomodate Amazon and deal with various other problems their presence would have created.
bogomipz 8y ago
And NY can allocate that 505 million dollars they were going to give to Amazon in the form of a capital grant for something that will benefit the public like infrastructure. >"Now the city receives $0." No, now the city receives zero from Amazon. Or another way to look at it is Now Amazon will get zero access to NYC's talent pool. Meanwhile Google is quietly adding 12K new jobs at a new building in Manhattan and doing so without asking for subsidies or incentives. These will be tax revenues that NYC and NY state didn't have to pay to get. NYC will be just fine. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-plans-large-new-york-city-expansion-1541636579 https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-plans-large-new-york-cit...
untog 8y ago
Well, not $0. NYC is a desirable place for many companies, and others will move in to the place Amazon intended to occupy. It might take longer and the companies may be smaller, but it's not like there is now a giant black hole in Queens that can never be filled.
- joyeuse6701 8y ago
  I think many businesses will think twice about attempting a move to this particular part of NYC, who knows if your company falls into the 'acceptable' category of the government and it's representatives new ideology?
  - untog 8y ago
    I don't think they will. Unless you are a company the size of Amazon (and literally only a couple are) you are not going to have the same problems.

Over some years, Amazon was to pay some $X in taxes. But they were given a break to pay $3b less assuming some goals are met. The city receives $X - $3b. Now the city receives $0.

minikites 8y ago

You're assuming $X was larger than $3 billion, which isn't a given. Look at sports stadium deals, hosting the Olympics, or Wisconsin's giveaway to Foxconn. The city/state budget is usually the loser in these deals.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
whatok 8y ago
Sports stadiums and the Olympics generate temporary jobs and generally do not have the same economic impact of 25k jobs paying 150k over ten years. Amazon's tax breaks were tied to headcount so it's hard to see how the city would be a loser in this case.
- minikites 8y ago
  Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...
  - whatok 8y ago
    Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.
    - mcphage 8y ago
      The point isn’t whether Amazon should or shouldn’t be paying a Federal taxes, it’s whether—given this prior behavior—we would expect them to pay state or city taxes, instead of finding or creating a loophole to get out of them.
      - whatok 8y ago
        There are a lot of large businesses headquartered in New York. They all seem to be pretty smart. If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well.
        eric_h 8y ago
        Most of those large businesses didn't preface the building of their headquarters with a very public dog and pony show of shopping for tax subsidies. Lots of shady tax related shenanigans happen in NYC, particularly in real estate development. Sometimes they get called out, and sometimes they go unnoticed for years/decades until new information draws the public eye to them.
        mcphage 8y ago
        > If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well. Given the response to Amazon doing so is "how dare you complain about Amazon using these loopholes, it's their fiduciary duty to bilk the government out of all the money it can", I don't think there would be widespread publicity to other companies using loopholes. Instead we'd have people like you trying to shut up anyone talking about them.
        whatok 8y ago
        I'm not trying to shut anyone up. Please don't be rude. I'm wondering why all the blame is directed at Amazon when they sought to take advantage of (mostly) pre-existing programs. If the problem people have is with tax subsidies in general then isn't the government the real issue here?
- oarsinsync 8y ago
  > 25k jobs paying 150k I've seen a few people make this remark, on the assumption that every single job was going to be a high paying job. I believe this is an assumption as I don't recall seeing anything from Amazon stating that they were intending to do this either. A citation would be helpful for this position.
  - whatok 8y ago
    You've seen a few people reference this because it was in a widely circulated press release by the company itself. https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-details/amazon-selects-new-york-city-and-northern-virginia-new https://press.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-det... Third bullet under Amazon in Long Island City in New York City: Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion based on the company creating 25,000 jobs in Long Island City. This includes a refundable tax credit through New York State’s Excelsior Program of up to $1.2 billion calculated as a percentage of the salaries Amazon expects to pay employees over the next 10 years, which equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000; and a cash grant from Empire State Development of $325 million based on the square footage of buildings occupied in the next 10 years. Amazon will receive these incentives over the next decade based on the incremental jobs it creates each year and as it reaches building occupancy targets. The company will separately apply for as-of-right incentives including New York City’s Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) and New York City’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP).
    - oarsinsync 8y ago
      Thank you!

Slartie 8y ago

But don't forget that they also need to invest $0 into additional infrastructure necessary to accomodate Amazon and deal with various other problems their presence would have created.

bogomipz 8y ago

And NY can allocate that 505 million dollars they were going to give to Amazon in the form of a capital grant for something that will benefit the public like infrastructure. >"Now the city receives $0." No, now the city receives zero from Amazon. Or another way to look at it is Now Amazon will get zero access to NYC's talent pool. Meanwhile Google is quietly adding 12K new jobs at a new building in Manhattan and doing so without asking for subsidies or incentives. These will be tax revenues that NYC and NY state didn't have to pay to get. NYC will be just fine. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-plans-large-new-york-city-expansion-1541636579 https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-plans-large-new-york-cit...

untog 8y ago

Well, not $0. NYC is a desirable place for many companies, and others will move in to the place Amazon intended to occupy. It might take longer and the companies may be smaller, but it's not like there is now a giant black hole in Queens that can never be filled.

joyeuse6701 8y ago
I think many businesses will think twice about attempting a move to this particular part of NYC, who knows if your company falls into the 'acceptable' category of the government and it's representatives new ideology?
- untog 8y ago
  I don't think they will. Unless you are a company the size of Amazon (and literally only a couple are) you are not going to have the same problems.