7 ms·

Too many debates I read online today assume that the city was going to hand Amazon a $3b check. Some sort of misunderstanding of how taxes/tax subsidies work.

melling 8y ago
So, what you’re saying is that there’s not currently $3 billion saved that can now be invested in the schools, subways, etc.
- lr4444lr 8y ago
  Not sure why you are being downvoted. That is exactly correct.
  - tmalsburg2 8y ago
    I didn't downvote OP but assumed that OP's comment was meant to be a sarcastic response to something that AOC wrote about the matter. Sarcasm is rarely a constructive contribution.
    - melling 8y ago
      I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic, I was trying to be explicit by restating. There’s not an extra $3 billion lying around to invest in New York City for other purposes because Amazon canceled the deal.
      - weiming 8y ago
        As it turns out, there really was an AOC-ism of that nature. https://twitter.com/akarl_smith/status/1096123735935987712?s=20 https://twitter.com/akarl_smith/status/1096123735935987712?s...
- weiming 8y ago
  Over some years, Amazon was to pay some $X in taxes. But they were given a break to pay $3b less assuming some goals are met. The city receives $X - $3b. Now the city receives $0.
  - minikites 8y ago
    You're assuming $X was larger than $3 billion, which isn't a given. Look at sports stadium deals, hosting the Olympics, or Wisconsin's giveaway to Foxconn. The city/state budget is usually the loser in these deals.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - whatok 8y ago
      Sports stadiums and the Olympics generate temporary jobs and generally do not have the same economic impact of 25k jobs paying 150k over ten years. Amazon's tax breaks were tied to headcount so it's hard to see how the city would be a loser in this case.
      - minikites 8y ago
        Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...
        whatok 8y ago
        Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.
        mcphage 8y ago
- mc32 8y ago
  The fallout will be interesting to see: NY State govt is your regular Blue Democrat government, some of NYC, parts which were against this HQ2 deal, are very progressive. The progressives undermined the traditional Democrats. I bet we get to see echoes of this skirmish during the next cycle.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    I think it's the opposite, this is an echo of the latest election cycle. Since Hillary was humilliated by Trump the centrist Democrats are losing most political battles, gradually.
    - mc32 8y ago
      Hillary didn’t lose because she was a centrist (Would Biden have lost?). She lost because she’s a bad candidate. She lost to Obama. She is a war hawk. Also lacked Bill's charisma. People in the middle want the government to give them a fair shake, they don’t want handouts. They’re tired of being sold out by government and industry to overseas cheap labor.
paulgb 8y ago
Yes, but the whole thing has a Karmic feel to it. Amazon used a very public HQ process which turned the process into a public game show. Since they used public pressure on local politicians as a bargaining chip to get a deal done, it feels fitting that it backfired this way.
- orzig 8y ago
  It's not 'high stakes' if it doesn't have a real chance of blowing up!
- repsilat 8y ago
  A little ironic in the other direction too, I think. New Yorkers saw the deal as corrupt favouritism and wanted to stop it from happening. Now New York has even more of a reputation for corruption by making it clear they won't uphold the terms of deals they make. Really, Amazon are lucky the subsidies disappeared before they made significant capital investments, otherwise it would practically have been extortion.
  - CPLX 8y ago
    > they won't uphold the terms of deals they make Who the fuck is “they” I didn’t agree to shit. That was done by some guy who lives in Albany.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    >"Now New York has even more of a reputation for corruption by making it clear they won't uphold the terms of deals they make." First of all New York didn't rescind the terms of any agreement. Amazon made the decision not to go forward. Second Governor Cuomo pursued the deal as a "General Project Plan", this is a state process that circumvents a local approval process that would involve the city council and any community input. If there's any "corruption" here it was in the way this thing was pursued from the outset. So no, not "ironic" at all.
    - repsilat 8y ago
      > New York didn't rescind the terms of any agreement. Amazon made the decision not to go forward. The State Senate put Michael Gianiaris in a position to veto it. Gianiaris called the deal "unacceptable." He said "If their view is we want your $3 billion or we're leaving, maybe they should leave." He said he wanted to renegotiate the deal from scratch. Maybe that was just his opening position, and maybe he would have softened up once in a meeting room, but if I were in Amazon's shoes I wouldn't expect to get what I'd been offered, and I'd be pretty worried about getting mugged after setting up shop too.

melling 8y ago

So, what you’re saying is that there’s not currently $3 billion saved that can now be invested in the schools, subways, etc.

lr4444lr 8y ago
Not sure why you are being downvoted. That is exactly correct.
- tmalsburg2 8y ago
  I didn't downvote OP but assumed that OP's comment was meant to be a sarcastic response to something that AOC wrote about the matter. Sarcasm is rarely a constructive contribution.
  - melling 8y ago
    I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic, I was trying to be explicit by restating. There’s not an extra $3 billion lying around to invest in New York City for other purposes because Amazon canceled the deal.
    - weiming 8y ago
      As it turns out, there really was an AOC-ism of that nature. https://twitter.com/akarl_smith/status/1096123735935987712?s=20 https://twitter.com/akarl_smith/status/1096123735935987712?s...
weiming 8y ago
Over some years, Amazon was to pay some $X in taxes. But they were given a break to pay $3b less assuming some goals are met. The city receives $X - $3b. Now the city receives $0.
- minikites 8y ago
  You're assuming $X was larger than $3 billion, which isn't a given. Look at sports stadium deals, hosting the Olympics, or Wisconsin's giveaway to Foxconn. The city/state budget is usually the loser in these deals.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - whatok 8y ago
    Sports stadiums and the Olympics generate temporary jobs and generally do not have the same economic impact of 25k jobs paying 150k over ten years. Amazon's tax breaks were tied to headcount so it's hard to see how the city would be a loser in this case.
    - minikites 8y ago
      Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...
      - whatok 8y ago
        Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.
        mcphage 8y ago
mc32 8y ago
The fallout will be interesting to see: NY State govt is your regular Blue Democrat government, some of NYC, parts which were against this HQ2 deal, are very progressive. The progressives undermined the traditional Democrats. I bet we get to see echoes of this skirmish during the next cycle.
- JetSpiegel 8y ago
  I think it's the opposite, this is an echo of the latest election cycle. Since Hillary was humilliated by Trump the centrist Democrats are losing most political battles, gradually.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Hillary didn’t lose because she was a centrist (Would Biden have lost?). She lost because she’s a bad candidate. She lost to Obama. She is a war hawk. Also lacked Bill's charisma. People in the middle want the government to give them a fair shake, they don’t want handouts. They’re tired of being sold out by government and industry to overseas cheap labor.

paulgb 8y ago

Yes, but the whole thing has a Karmic feel to it. Amazon used a very public HQ process which turned the process into a public game show. Since they used public pressure on local politicians as a bargaining chip to get a deal done, it feels fitting that it backfired this way.

orzig 8y ago
It's not 'high stakes' if it doesn't have a real chance of blowing up!
repsilat 8y ago
A little ironic in the other direction too, I think. New Yorkers saw the deal as corrupt favouritism and wanted to stop it from happening. Now New York has even more of a reputation for corruption by making it clear they won't uphold the terms of deals they make. Really, Amazon are lucky the subsidies disappeared before they made significant capital investments, otherwise it would practically have been extortion.
- CPLX 8y ago
  > they won't uphold the terms of deals they make Who the fuck is “they” I didn’t agree to shit. That was done by some guy who lives in Albany.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  >"Now New York has even more of a reputation for corruption by making it clear they won't uphold the terms of deals they make." First of all New York didn't rescind the terms of any agreement. Amazon made the decision not to go forward. Second Governor Cuomo pursued the deal as a "General Project Plan", this is a state process that circumvents a local approval process that would involve the city council and any community input. If there's any "corruption" here it was in the way this thing was pursued from the outset. So no, not "ironic" at all.
  - repsilat 8y ago
    > New York didn't rescind the terms of any agreement. Amazon made the decision not to go forward. The State Senate put Michael Gianiaris in a position to veto it. Gianiaris called the deal "unacceptable." He said "If their view is we want your $3 billion or we're leaving, maybe they should leave." He said he wanted to renegotiate the deal from scratch. Maybe that was just his opening position, and maybe he would have softened up once in a meeting room, but if I were in Amazon's shoes I wouldn't expect to get what I'd been offered, and I'd be pretty worried about getting mugged after setting up shop too.