4 ms·

Browsers have always done that

int_19h 8y ago
We've had a time when standards were at the forefront, between the death of the last browser monoculture, and the establishment of the current one. It was good while it lasted.
- kkarakk 8y ago
  if you don't specify a timeframe you can't be contested and therefore your nostalgia reads like it is for a time that never existed except in your mind
  - sverhagen 8y ago
    Aren't they "obviously" talking about Internet Explorer's hegemony "then", Chrome's rise "now"?
  - mstade 8y ago
    Judging from this chart[1], definitely somewhere between 2008 (the x-axis starts at 2009, but if I recall correctly Chrome was released in 2008) and second half of 2012. Possibly the original comment was referring to a larger time span than this, but judging from the linked chart that's when Chrome was still on the up-and-up compared to IE. In my opinion though, this timeframe was 2008 to about 2014, when Google (and Microsoft) essentially strong armed Mozilla into accepting EME[2]. I'm not sure that's when the slippery slope really started, but it's definitely when I started believing there's a new boss in town – same as the old boss. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#/media/File:Web_browser_usage_share,_May_2017.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#/media/File:Web_... [2]: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-mission-and-w3c-eme/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi...
    - SquareWheel 8y ago
      I remember writing websites at that time. Developers were worried about there being "yet another browser to support". It was a big deal because supporting all the browsers was already a lot of work. Nothing rendered consistently. Javascript would run fine in one browser, but not in other. You got to deal with fun features like quirks mode and worrying about transparent pngs. You had to use Flash if you wanted to embed a video. The web is a completely different place today. Everything renders consistently across the different browsers - even Edge for the most part. Javascript is a modern language now. Video/audio embeds were finally standardized. Layout tools are significantly better with flexbox and soon, grid. The idea that we were at some web standards pinnacle in 2008-2012 is crazy to me. The pinnacle is now.
      - mstade 8y ago
        > The idea that we were at some web standards pinnacle in 2008-2012 is crazy to me. The pinnacle is now. I don't think the point was that we were at a pinnacle in terms of standards quality, completeness, or user agent consistency. Rather I think the point – at least it for me – was that during those years it was more of a conversation, not Google choosing a direction and everyone else more or less forced to follow suit. We are certainly in a better spot today in terms of capability, I agree, but I'm not sure I'd agree that we're in a better spot in terms of collaboration.
        SquareWheel 8y ago
        At what time has there been better collaboration between browser vendors than right now? That is the reason that browsers are so well in sync with each other now.
        mstade 8y ago
        Well that's the argument, isn't it? Collaboration doesn't mean necessarily mean being in sync or following suit. When there's a hegemony then a level of collaboration might still exist, but if the interests don't align with the dominant party they can just go ahead anyway and more or less force others to fall in line – e.g. EME. Even if everyone syncs up, it's not necessarily good collaboration. Conversely, the dominant party can choose to just ignore other's contributions and ideas if their interests don't align, effectively making those contributions largely pointless. Whether or not you agree is one thing, but I hope my point is clearer now anyways. :o)

We've had a time when standards were at the forefront, between the death of the last browser monoculture, and the establishment of the current one. It was good while it lasted.

kkarakk 8y ago
if you don't specify a timeframe you can't be contested and therefore your nostalgia reads like it is for a time that never existed except in your mind
- sverhagen 8y ago
  Aren't they "obviously" talking about Internet Explorer's hegemony "then", Chrome's rise "now"?
- mstade 8y ago
  Judging from this chart[1], definitely somewhere between 2008 (the x-axis starts at 2009, but if I recall correctly Chrome was released in 2008) and second half of 2012. Possibly the original comment was referring to a larger time span than this, but judging from the linked chart that's when Chrome was still on the up-and-up compared to IE. In my opinion though, this timeframe was 2008 to about 2014, when Google (and Microsoft) essentially strong armed Mozilla into accepting EME[2]. I'm not sure that's when the slippery slope really started, but it's definitely when I started believing there's a new boss in town – same as the old boss. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#/media/File:Web_browser_usage_share,_May_2017.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#/media/File:Web_... [2]: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-mission-and-w3c-eme/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi...
  - SquareWheel 8y ago
    I remember writing websites at that time. Developers were worried about there being "yet another browser to support". It was a big deal because supporting all the browsers was already a lot of work. Nothing rendered consistently. Javascript would run fine in one browser, but not in other. You got to deal with fun features like quirks mode and worrying about transparent pngs. You had to use Flash if you wanted to embed a video. The web is a completely different place today. Everything renders consistently across the different browsers - even Edge for the most part. Javascript is a modern language now. Video/audio embeds were finally standardized. Layout tools are significantly better with flexbox and soon, grid. The idea that we were at some web standards pinnacle in 2008-2012 is crazy to me. The pinnacle is now.
    - mstade 8y ago
      > The idea that we were at some web standards pinnacle in 2008-2012 is crazy to me. The pinnacle is now. I don't think the point was that we were at a pinnacle in terms of standards quality, completeness, or user agent consistency. Rather I think the point – at least it for me – was that during those years it was more of a conversation, not Google choosing a direction and everyone else more or less forced to follow suit. We are certainly in a better spot today in terms of capability, I agree, but I'm not sure I'd agree that we're in a better spot in terms of collaboration.
      - SquareWheel 8y ago
        At what time has there been better collaboration between browser vendors than right now? That is the reason that browsers are so well in sync with each other now.
        mstade 8y ago
        Well that's the argument, isn't it? Collaboration doesn't mean necessarily mean being in sync or following suit. When there's a hegemony then a level of collaboration might still exist, but if the interests don't align with the dominant party they can just go ahead anyway and more or less force others to fall in line – e.g. EME. Even if everyone syncs up, it's not necessarily good collaboration. Conversely, the dominant party can choose to just ignore other's contributions and ideas if their interests don't align, effectively making those contributions largely pointless. Whether or not you agree is one thing, but I hope my point is clearer now anyways. :o)