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Not just complexity, but quantity of tools that do the same thing. Helm, Forge, Ksonnet, Operators, now this Skaffold (haven't heard of it before)... Sure, ther

Not just complexity, but quantity of tools that do the same thing. Helm, Forge, Ksonnet, Operators, now this Skaffold (haven't heard of it before)... Sure, there are some differences, but still... I'm currently moving one app from GAE to GKE and saw recipes for using all of those to describe the infrastructure. Quantity itself is not an issue - it's great to have options. Incompatibility, segmentation and uncertainity about the future are issues, though. E.g. ksonnet and Forge are dying. Some say Helm isn't particularly healthy, too - is it just speculations or would it die in next year or two, leaving all those charts repos a dead code for archeologists? Maybe that's just me, but modern DevOps feels like JavaScript world from a few years ago. Things are born in abundance, promise lots, and die before they're even v1.0.

_bxg1 8y ago
https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
gtaylor 8y ago
I have the opposite impression of Helm. I'm seeing vendors and other companies cranking out and sharing Charts at a rate I've never seen before. There are some review issues in the main upstream Helm Chart repo, but that's due to volume (which is now higher than ever).
- drdaeman 8y ago
  While true, I also read about Helm v3 (that's said to be something different) and that maybe Helm is not the way to go but CRDs and Operators are... Well, at the very least, my point was - it's all confusing.
  - geerlingguy 8y ago
    Helm is fun for demoing complex things the first time, but in production use, it’s a mixed bag. Lots of great alternatives that feel more ‘clean’ to me.
    - dayglo 8y ago
      What are the cleaner alternatives?
      - ksajadi 8y ago
        Cloud 66 Skycap is a good alternative without most of the issues of Helm
        dayglo 8y ago
        This seems like a full-fat Build and Release management hosted solution (good job by the way, this looks great and I'll try it out). I was more specifically asking Jeff which similar tools are cleaner, and why? Are there any helm drop-in replacements that anyone would recommend? Or is it really a shift to other ways of deploying, like these hosted solutions, or is everyone building their own k8s operators now...? Or something else?
        ksajadi 8y ago
        Fair points and questions. I think most of the past couple of years was spent on making Kubernetes operation friendly. Now everyone has a managed k8s service so there are many solutions coming up to deal with their issues in “Day 2” like deployments or secret management
arianvanp 8y ago
I count more than 63 different ways to do scaffolding. I started keeping track because I wanted to write a comparison for my 64th solution, but never did because there are more than 64 competing products on this space By some people from k8s: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FCgqz1Ci7_VCz_wdh8vBitZ3giBtac_H8SBw4uxnrsE/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FCgqz1Ci7_VCz_wdh8vB... By me: https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes/issues/10 https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes/issues/10
bpicolo 8y ago
Pretty much all of these tools feel like the wrong abstraction level for app devs. Have to imagine some k8s-controller/git server that enables git deployments to k8s with just a node size config is the optimal end state. I’ve mentioned this before in related threads: app devs want heroku. They want a managed platform where they type “git push” and they have an application with all the fixings. Heroku got the UX right long ago, and the rest of the ecosystem is still playing catchup
- drdaeman 8y ago
  Problem there is, this isn't easy and K8s doesn't do anything about that. You need a whole CI/CD pipeline to build Docker images first. However, there is https://gitkube.sh/ https://gitkube.sh/ that looks somewhat similar. Can't vouch for or against - haven't used it at all.

_bxg1 8y ago

https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

gtaylor 8y ago

I have the opposite impression of Helm. I'm seeing vendors and other companies cranking out and sharing Charts at a rate I've never seen before. There are some review issues in the main upstream Helm Chart repo, but that's due to volume (which is now higher than ever).

drdaeman 8y ago
While true, I also read about Helm v3 (that's said to be something different) and that maybe Helm is not the way to go but CRDs and Operators are... Well, at the very least, my point was - it's all confusing.
- geerlingguy 8y ago
  Helm is fun for demoing complex things the first time, but in production use, it’s a mixed bag. Lots of great alternatives that feel more ‘clean’ to me.
  - dayglo 8y ago
    What are the cleaner alternatives?
    - ksajadi 8y ago
      Cloud 66 Skycap is a good alternative without most of the issues of Helm
      - dayglo 8y ago
        This seems like a full-fat Build and Release management hosted solution (good job by the way, this looks great and I'll try it out). I was more specifically asking Jeff which similar tools are cleaner, and why? Are there any helm drop-in replacements that anyone would recommend? Or is it really a shift to other ways of deploying, like these hosted solutions, or is everyone building their own k8s operators now...? Or something else?
        ksajadi 8y ago
        Fair points and questions. I think most of the past couple of years was spent on making Kubernetes operation friendly. Now everyone has a managed k8s service so there are many solutions coming up to deal with their issues in “Day 2” like deployments or secret management

arianvanp 8y ago

I count more than 63 different ways to do scaffolding. I started keeping track because I wanted to write a comparison for my 64th solution, but never did because there are more than 64 competing products on this space By some people from k8s: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FCgqz1Ci7_VCz_wdh8vBitZ3giBtac_H8SBw4uxnrsE/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FCgqz1Ci7_VCz_wdh8vB... By me: https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes/issues/10 https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes/issues/10

bpicolo 8y ago

Pretty much all of these tools feel like the wrong abstraction level for app devs. Have to imagine some k8s-controller/git server that enables git deployments to k8s with just a node size config is the optimal end state. I’ve mentioned this before in related threads: app devs want heroku. They want a managed platform where they type “git push” and they have an application with all the fixings. Heroku got the UX right long ago, and the rest of the ecosystem is still playing catchup

drdaeman 8y ago
Problem there is, this isn't easy and K8s doesn't do anything about that. You need a whole CI/CD pipeline to build Docker images first. However, there is https://gitkube.sh/ https://gitkube.sh/ that looks somewhat similar. Can't vouch for or against - haven't used it at all.