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As someone who lived in NYC for 5 years, I can't understand how anyone can not consider this a loss to NYC. Don't get me wrong I hate corporate welfare as much

As someone who lived in NYC for 5 years, I can't understand how anyone can not consider this a loss to NYC. Don't get me wrong I hate corporate welfare as much as anyone else and I have no desire to work for Amazon because it seems like a corporate sweatshop, but 25k jobs at an average $100k+ salary would've been a boon to the city, even despite the $3 billion in tax subsidies. The additional revenue for workers and taxes would've been a huge boost to the economy and would've more than paid for itself. The jobs would've been in Long-Island City, which is basically a glass tower condo ghost town with practically no office/business presence. The subway for people commuting into LIC for work is probably currently fairly empty, so the subway could accommodate them. (The same cannot be said of the reverse. Commuting from Astoria, Queens or Williamsburg, Brooklyn into Manhattan for work during rush hour is horrible). I agree that politicians need to do a better job of accommodating those who are displaced by gentrification. NYC housing costs are insane (as someone else mentioned we undertax single-family homes and $100m penthouses), the subway is failing, etc. Perhaps the deal would've gone through had politicians better communicated how the $3 billion subsidy package was not just a handout to Amazon but would actually improve the city and the well-being of its residents. But given the city's failure to build affordable housing (not the "affordable housing" buzzword where luxury apartments are subsidized to low income people who enter a lottery, but doesn't actually meaningfully increase affordable housing stock) and fix the subway, maybe the city isn't capable of managing itself and stemming the pitfalls of gentrification, and so the opposition was fired up by this awareness. It seems that so long as fundamental aspects of NYC like its subway system are managed by NY State, we will never see any meaningful change at anything more than a snails-pace. Perhaps NYC should be fighting for independence from NY State to be in full control of its own destiny rather than being at the mercy of politicians in Albany with a poor track record of attending to the city's needs. (sorry I got derailed there a bit, just a stream of thought)

Voloskaya 8y ago
> "maybe the city isn't capable of managing itself and stemming the pitfalls of gentrification" You seem to understand pretty well why some are not seeing this as a loss after all.
- JDiculous 8y ago
  Yea, the more I research this, the more I realize that this is the crux of the issue. The residents have no faith that the politicians will stem gentrification. The affordable housing crisis and congestion will only be further exacerbated. Your average Queens resident who's already barely making her rent will see rents skyrocket, forcing her to move out and further into the boondocks come lease renewal time. I think the opposition reflects a dissatisfaction with the politicians/administrators who run their city more than a hatred of Amazon.
iterati 8y ago
> The subway for people commuting into LIC for work is probably currently fairly empty, so the subway could accommodate them. (The same cannot be said of the reverse. Commuting from Astoria, Queens or Williamsburg, Brooklyn into Manhattan for work during rush hour is horrible). I lived in Greenpoint and Sunnyside for 3 years ~5 years ago and either took a train from LIC into the city or through LIC. They were always busy. Just because no one is going to LIC for work doesn't mean that they don't have to use the same trains that would be used to go to LIC. The 7 is a crowded line as are the orange and blue lines that go through. The only line that wouldn't be incredibly crowded is the G, and even that isn't fairly empty going to Court as it's a popular way to get to midtown if you live near the G.
- JDiculous 8y ago
  True I didn't mean to assume away the subway problem - The subway is already over-capacity on many lines in its current state, and the administration has failed to do anything about it. In my 5 years the subway got noticeably worse every year.
mancerayder 8y ago
There'd be a lot to unpack to reply fairly and completely to your message here... so to be brief... I'd say the MTA's problems around poor oversight wouldn't be magically solved by NYC taking control. For example, NYCHA was under NYC control. Sure, over the years the Federal Government has diminished funding from their side -- but that should not overshadow the contractor and union corruption that NYCHA, whose head was controlled by the City, suffered with. You don't need to re-read the headlines about the falsified lead inspections, but I probably do need to remind you that in the last couple of scandals (one involving orgies and parties in a South Bronx project, as well as clocking overtime while not being there), not a SINGLE person got fired, thanks to union protection. Rumors are an elevator repairman position pays 300K. Until recently, NO repairs were done anywhere after 4pm due to union agreements. Finally, the City is the worst landlord - racking up violations more than any private landlord could, in the worst sort of hypocritical irony. So no, I don't think so. NYCHA was found at fault recently in a Federal lawsuit, where HUD almost took the whole thing over. You can't blame the Federal Government for that. You probably don't want to know that all the green scaffolding that lasts years is being rented -- the money going to a private contractor. You can look this up and do the math, it's just another example of incompetence. Next, the City is already making MTA's life harder financially, and here are two recent examples. One is, the Mayor came out against banning food on the subway because it supposedly disproportionally affects the poor. Yet, trash fires from stuff like food containers account for a sizeable fraction of the delays. Here's another. The DA stopped prosecuting subway turnstile jumping, which costs 80M a year from lost subway fares and something like 120m from lost bus fares. And prosecuting this would be racist, we're told. Finally property taxes go up 20% a year -- at least mine do, because that's the max allowed by NY State. If NYC were running its own affairs, I can't even imagine what would happen. They failed to implement a wider congestion charge, like they do in London and many other places, because, ahem, it, according to the Mayor, affects the poor (he said this). So now we applied a congestion charge to taxis and Ubers/Lyfts/for-hires, because the drivers are rich, right? I could go on. Finally I'll leave you with, have a look at how many new City jobs opened up and new agencies opened up in 2018. Do you really think the City can be trusted fully owning its budget?
- JDiculous 8y ago
  Wow, I'm just learning about these scandals (I left NYC a year ago) and they are very disturbing. The fact that these employees haven't faced any civil/criminal charges and haven't even been fired is despicable. You're clearly right in that the NYC taking ownership wouldn't magically solve the issue. There's a bigger systemic problem here - piss poor management and complete lack of accountability. The fix isn't as simple as changing ownership since clearly these organizations are being misproperly managed regardless of whether NYC or NY State are in charge. More drastic reform is necessary. I don't know what that looks like. Maybe we can start by giving politicians more direct control and oversight over these "public benefit corporations" that they're bankrolling. If your property appreciating in value by 20+%/year? That's insane.

Voloskaya 8y ago

> "maybe the city isn't capable of managing itself and stemming the pitfalls of gentrification" You seem to understand pretty well why some are not seeing this as a loss after all.

JDiculous 8y ago
Yea, the more I research this, the more I realize that this is the crux of the issue. The residents have no faith that the politicians will stem gentrification. The affordable housing crisis and congestion will only be further exacerbated. Your average Queens resident who's already barely making her rent will see rents skyrocket, forcing her to move out and further into the boondocks come lease renewal time. I think the opposition reflects a dissatisfaction with the politicians/administrators who run their city more than a hatred of Amazon.

iterati 8y ago

> The subway for people commuting into LIC for work is probably currently fairly empty, so the subway could accommodate them. (The same cannot be said of the reverse. Commuting from Astoria, Queens or Williamsburg, Brooklyn into Manhattan for work during rush hour is horrible). I lived in Greenpoint and Sunnyside for 3 years ~5 years ago and either took a train from LIC into the city or through LIC. They were always busy. Just because no one is going to LIC for work doesn't mean that they don't have to use the same trains that would be used to go to LIC. The 7 is a crowded line as are the orange and blue lines that go through. The only line that wouldn't be incredibly crowded is the G, and even that isn't fairly empty going to Court as it's a popular way to get to midtown if you live near the G.

JDiculous 8y ago
True I didn't mean to assume away the subway problem - The subway is already over-capacity on many lines in its current state, and the administration has failed to do anything about it. In my 5 years the subway got noticeably worse every year.

mancerayder 8y ago

There'd be a lot to unpack to reply fairly and completely to your message here... so to be brief... I'd say the MTA's problems around poor oversight wouldn't be magically solved by NYC taking control. For example, NYCHA was under NYC control. Sure, over the years the Federal Government has diminished funding from their side -- but that should not overshadow the contractor and union corruption that NYCHA, whose head was controlled by the City, suffered with. You don't need to re-read the headlines about the falsified lead inspections, but I probably do need to remind you that in the last couple of scandals (one involving orgies and parties in a South Bronx project, as well as clocking overtime while not being there), not a SINGLE person got fired, thanks to union protection. Rumors are an elevator repairman position pays 300K. Until recently, NO repairs were done anywhere after 4pm due to union agreements. Finally, the City is the worst landlord - racking up violations more than any private landlord could, in the worst sort of hypocritical irony. So no, I don't think so. NYCHA was found at fault recently in a Federal lawsuit, where HUD almost took the whole thing over. You can't blame the Federal Government for that. You probably don't want to know that all the green scaffolding that lasts years is being rented -- the money going to a private contractor. You can look this up and do the math, it's just another example of incompetence. Next, the City is already making MTA's life harder financially, and here are two recent examples. One is, the Mayor came out against banning food on the subway because it supposedly disproportionally affects the poor. Yet, trash fires from stuff like food containers account for a sizeable fraction of the delays. Here's another. The DA stopped prosecuting subway turnstile jumping, which costs 80M a year from lost subway fares and something like 120m from lost bus fares. And prosecuting this would be racist, we're told. Finally property taxes go up 20% a year -- at least mine do, because that's the max allowed by NY State. If NYC were running its own affairs, I can't even imagine what would happen. They failed to implement a wider congestion charge, like they do in London and many other places, because, ahem, it, according to the Mayor, affects the poor (he said this). So now we applied a congestion charge to taxis and Ubers/Lyfts/for-hires, because the drivers are rich, right? I could go on. Finally I'll leave you with, have a look at how many new City jobs opened up and new agencies opened up in 2018. Do you really think the City can be trusted fully owning its budget?

JDiculous 8y ago
Wow, I'm just learning about these scandals (I left NYC a year ago) and they are very disturbing. The fact that these employees haven't faced any civil/criminal charges and haven't even been fired is despicable. You're clearly right in that the NYC taking ownership wouldn't magically solve the issue. There's a bigger systemic problem here - piss poor management and complete lack of accountability. The fix isn't as simple as changing ownership since clearly these organizations are being misproperly managed regardless of whether NYC or NY State are in charge. More drastic reform is necessary. I don't know what that looks like. Maybe we can start by giving politicians more direct control and oversight over these "public benefit corporations" that they're bankrolling. If your property appreciating in value by 20+%/year? That's insane.