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I live in LIC and I've not met anyone who supported it, especially the $3BN of incentives. No wonder Gianaris, who represents our district in the NY Senate, wa

I live in LIC and I've not met anyone who supported it, especially the $3BN of incentives. No wonder Gianaris, who represents our district in the NY Senate, was such a strong opponent.

rhegart 8y ago
Majority of the incentives are from Amazon’s taxes. 27B in economic activity for 3B in tax breaks for just 10 years is wayyy better than almost every other corporate deal. Better than Tesla for sure. That 3B will no longer be generated. You want a net 24B or a net 0B? New Yorkers chose 0
- wolco 8y ago
  Other businesses can move into those spaces and will end up paying more in taxes. Property values will go up slower. Having one company move in sounds great but diversity might be a better longterm strategy.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > Other businesses can move into those spaces and will end up paying more in taxes The first is likely, the second is very unlikely. For the simple reason that Amazon would not plan such project in a market that is so hot that is able to generate tax income at the same rate as concentrated investment project of the Amazon HQ size. Surely, it won't turn into a barren wasteland, but I would not expect it to produce more in tax revenue than big development like Amazon HQ would.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      Time will tell.
- Q6T46nT668w6i3m 8y ago
  Except it isn’t 0. It’s far from 0! LIC’s growth is really impressive without Amazon.
  - Androider 8y ago
    The waterfront is slowly getting nicer, but as soon as you go even a few blocks inwards it's still sketchy and/or industrial. An anchor like Amazon HQ would have had a ripple effect of improving the whole area (like maybe we could finally get a decent grocery store? It's cheaper to take the train into Manhattan and go to Whole Foods than visiting the local LIC Food Cellar and Key Food markets!), especially the more eastern neighborhoods within walking distance, which really aren't seeing much of any development today.
    - betterunix2 8y ago
      I guess the huge Citigroup office does not count? Also when last I looked a bunch of high rises were going up near Sunnyside Yard which is pretty far from the waterfront. When I was 16 LIC was a pretty sketchy place, but as of a few years ago when I lived there it was completely different. There is still some light industry related to food trucks and taxi cabs, but you have to walk pretty far to get to anything more significant. The only sketchy area I can think of is the Queensbridge projects but that is north of the 59th st. bridge and pretty far from the rest of the neighborhood.
    - jtms 8y ago
      I know the Key Foods you are talking about - I used to live nearby it roughly 10 years ago. I can’t believe that it’s still really the only choice. Something is holding back LIC’s development to where it doesn’t seem to be keeping pace with surrounding areas. I think amazon could have been a big boon to getting things like a Whole Foods or other, better grocery stores into the area.
- sammycdubs 8y ago
  It's New York City, we don't need to give the largest company in the world a huge discount to do business here. It's not like the economic development of NYC is dependent on Amazon. It's a central hub to so many industries because of its infrastructure, talent, connection to capital markets etc, not because of handing out discounts.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > we don't need to give the largest company in the world a huge discount to do business here Looks like you do, because now we have - no discount, no business. > It's not like the economic development of NYC is dependent on Amazon Of course, losing several billions of added value and 25K jobs won't kill the economy of the size of New York. Just as shooting oneself in the foot won't kill most healthy people. But keep at it, and sooner or later there would be a surprising development that the health is not what it once was...
    - 1986 8y ago
      Amazon is already in New York and their own statement today says they will continue expanding those teams despite not moving forward with HQ2. No discount, still business. "There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams."
      - smsm42 8y ago
        > No discount, still business Not the business that was conditional on the discount.
    - nihonde 8y ago
      NYC generates about 10% of US GDP, already houses Amazon, Google, and every other global player. We have our fingers in everything already. We don’t need to play this kind of needy urban development three-card monty nonsense to continue kicking ass economically all day and night long.
- anth_anm 8y ago
  I'll choose that 0 over giving away 3 billion every day. I don't care how you try to justify this sort of corruption.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    There was no "giving away" anything. There was "not taxing Amazon as harshly as others". It's like I tell you "I want to rent space on your frontyard for my sign" and you say "ok, $100 per day would do nicely" and I say "I need it for the whole month and $3K it too much, maybe $1.5K would do it?" and you say "I am not giving you away fifteen hundred bucks!". Then I say "OK, was nice talking to you" and you got $0 now instead of $1.5K you could have. But you're somehow happy you didn't "give away $1.5K", which you never had.
  - jtms 8y ago
    Perhaps consider having even a mild understanding of how tax incentives work before spouting nonsense righteous indignation?
    - anth_anm 8y ago
      Perhaps consider that not everyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant fool.
      - jtms 8y ago
        You can “disagree” all day long, but the fact remains your comment demonstrated a clear misunderstanding of how tax incentives work.
- airza 8y ago
  But that economic activity will go _somewhere_, and allowing businesses to pressure them into tax breaks is collectively gutting the ability of many city governments to function.
  - ChrisLomont 8y ago
    Those city govts can choose 0 in new business or new business with jobs and income taxes and property value increases. A business choosing a location is a business transaction, as is city taxation choices. Both can freely choose how to woo the other. NYC chose to lose possible decades of high paying jobs over their unwillingness to deal.
    - betterunix2 8y ago
      NYC is not exactly desperate. NYC is the anchor of an enormous economy that houses dozens upon dozens of large corporate offices and a vast number of jobs at all pay levels. NYC can afford to not deal with a corporation that is known for its poor working conditions and that did not even conduct its search in good faith. Other cities are not so fortunate, but Amazon has no interest in truly desperate cities (or even cities that are not so desperate but could use the boost, like Newark and Baltimore).
      - ChrisLomont 8y ago
        NYC as a whole not being desperate still makes throwing billions in income for residents, not all of whom make as much as Amazon would bring, a dumb move. Amazon’s role is not charity. It is to be as productive as possible. NYC does have the role in being a good steward of resources for its citizens. It threw out a lot of money and job for them due to a vocal minority.

I live in LIC and I've not met anyone who supported it, especially the $3BN of incentives. No wonder Gianaris, who represents our district in the NY Senate, was such a strong opponent.

rhegart 8y ago

Majority of the incentives are from Amazon’s taxes. 27B in economic activity for 3B in tax breaks for just 10 years is wayyy better than almost every other corporate deal. Better than Tesla for sure. That 3B will no longer be generated. You want a net 24B or a net 0B? New Yorkers chose 0

wolco 8y ago
Other businesses can move into those spaces and will end up paying more in taxes. Property values will go up slower. Having one company move in sounds great but diversity might be a better longterm strategy.
- smsm42 8y ago
  > Other businesses can move into those spaces and will end up paying more in taxes The first is likely, the second is very unlikely. For the simple reason that Amazon would not plan such project in a market that is so hot that is able to generate tax income at the same rate as concentrated investment project of the Amazon HQ size. Surely, it won't turn into a barren wasteland, but I would not expect it to produce more in tax revenue than big development like Amazon HQ would.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Time will tell.
Q6T46nT668w6i3m 8y ago
Except it isn’t 0. It’s far from 0! LIC’s growth is really impressive without Amazon.
- Androider 8y ago
  The waterfront is slowly getting nicer, but as soon as you go even a few blocks inwards it's still sketchy and/or industrial. An anchor like Amazon HQ would have had a ripple effect of improving the whole area (like maybe we could finally get a decent grocery store? It's cheaper to take the train into Manhattan and go to Whole Foods than visiting the local LIC Food Cellar and Key Food markets!), especially the more eastern neighborhoods within walking distance, which really aren't seeing much of any development today.
  - betterunix2 8y ago
    I guess the huge Citigroup office does not count? Also when last I looked a bunch of high rises were going up near Sunnyside Yard which is pretty far from the waterfront. When I was 16 LIC was a pretty sketchy place, but as of a few years ago when I lived there it was completely different. There is still some light industry related to food trucks and taxi cabs, but you have to walk pretty far to get to anything more significant. The only sketchy area I can think of is the Queensbridge projects but that is north of the 59th st. bridge and pretty far from the rest of the neighborhood.
  - jtms 8y ago
    I know the Key Foods you are talking about - I used to live nearby it roughly 10 years ago. I can’t believe that it’s still really the only choice. Something is holding back LIC’s development to where it doesn’t seem to be keeping pace with surrounding areas. I think amazon could have been a big boon to getting things like a Whole Foods or other, better grocery stores into the area.
sammycdubs 8y ago
It's New York City, we don't need to give the largest company in the world a huge discount to do business here. It's not like the economic development of NYC is dependent on Amazon. It's a central hub to so many industries because of its infrastructure, talent, connection to capital markets etc, not because of handing out discounts.
- smsm42 8y ago
  > we don't need to give the largest company in the world a huge discount to do business here Looks like you do, because now we have - no discount, no business. > It's not like the economic development of NYC is dependent on Amazon Of course, losing several billions of added value and 25K jobs won't kill the economy of the size of New York. Just as shooting oneself in the foot won't kill most healthy people. But keep at it, and sooner or later there would be a surprising development that the health is not what it once was...
  - 1986 8y ago
    Amazon is already in New York and their own statement today says they will continue expanding those teams despite not moving forward with HQ2. No discount, still business. "There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams."
    - smsm42 8y ago
      > No discount, still business Not the business that was conditional on the discount.
  - nihonde 8y ago
    NYC generates about 10% of US GDP, already houses Amazon, Google, and every other global player. We have our fingers in everything already. We don’t need to play this kind of needy urban development three-card monty nonsense to continue kicking ass economically all day and night long.
anth_anm 8y ago
I'll choose that 0 over giving away 3 billion every day. I don't care how you try to justify this sort of corruption.
- smsm42 8y ago
  There was no "giving away" anything. There was "not taxing Amazon as harshly as others". It's like I tell you "I want to rent space on your frontyard for my sign" and you say "ok, $100 per day would do nicely" and I say "I need it for the whole month and $3K it too much, maybe $1.5K would do it?" and you say "I am not giving you away fifteen hundred bucks!". Then I say "OK, was nice talking to you" and you got $0 now instead of $1.5K you could have. But you're somehow happy you didn't "give away $1.5K", which you never had.
- jtms 8y ago
  Perhaps consider having even a mild understanding of how tax incentives work before spouting nonsense righteous indignation?
  - anth_anm 8y ago
    Perhaps consider that not everyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant fool.
    - jtms 8y ago
      You can “disagree” all day long, but the fact remains your comment demonstrated a clear misunderstanding of how tax incentives work.
airza 8y ago
But that economic activity will go _somewhere_, and allowing businesses to pressure them into tax breaks is collectively gutting the ability of many city governments to function.
- ChrisLomont 8y ago
  Those city govts can choose 0 in new business or new business with jobs and income taxes and property value increases. A business choosing a location is a business transaction, as is city taxation choices. Both can freely choose how to woo the other. NYC chose to lose possible decades of high paying jobs over their unwillingness to deal.
  - betterunix2 8y ago
    NYC is not exactly desperate. NYC is the anchor of an enormous economy that houses dozens upon dozens of large corporate offices and a vast number of jobs at all pay levels. NYC can afford to not deal with a corporation that is known for its poor working conditions and that did not even conduct its search in good faith. Other cities are not so fortunate, but Amazon has no interest in truly desperate cities (or even cities that are not so desperate but could use the boost, like Newark and Baltimore).
    - ChrisLomont 8y ago
      NYC as a whole not being desperate still makes throwing billions in income for residents, not all of whom make as much as Amazon would bring, a dumb move. Amazon’s role is not charity. It is to be as productive as possible. NYC does have the role in being a good steward of resources for its citizens. It threw out a lot of money and job for them due to a vocal minority.