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Opening the Filecoin Project Repos
- tribler 8y agoThe interesting bit: "Legal Compliance for Filecoin Storage Miners" https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/65 https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/65 "In order to comply the with law, a miner who agreed to store the bad data must not serve it, and delete the data from its hard drive as soon as possible."
- ijpoijpoihpiuoh 8y agoFrom your link. Storage miners can absolutely decline retrieval requests, at any time, for any reason. Storage miners have to be able to access the data themselves for the purposes of the PoSt, but since the PoSt is a zero knowledge proof, none of that data ever leaves the miner. The PoSt simply proves to everyone else that they actually have the data, without revealing the data (thats how we keep it compact). I found this interesting too. Could a miner save on bandwidth costs by just hoarding a bunch of data, but never serving it up? I guess that they must have a solution for that, but is the solution decentralized?
- xwvvvvwx 8y agoIIRC each proof also contains a little bit of the data, so over time the original data is transmitted.
- thebzax 8y agothat sounds like the exact opposite of a zero-knowledge proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof
- tribler 8y agoYes, that seems a possible attack. You can store stuff and pass the regular audits using "Proof-Of-Storage", yet refuse to upload bits when finally asked. Hard to protect systems from irrational attacks like that (we know from building a similar system). They are quite transparant about their "unsolved-problems": https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/63 https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/63
- rickycook 8y agosee my reply to the parent; there’s a retrieval market too, which could help that issue
- dlubarov 8y agoWhy do you call that behavior irrational? Seems like it would save some bandwidth costs, as the parent suggests.
- wmf 8y agoAFAIK nodes get paid for serving data and they can set the price to be higher than their bandwidth costs, so refusing to serve data is refusing to make money.
- chvid 8y agoMaybe we need a bandwidth coin as well ...
- marknadal 8y agoMartti Malmi (and I) are working on that: https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-second-developer-returning-crypto https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-second-developer-returning... Our testnet has already pushed ~1TB of data in a day on a P2P network that cost ~$99 to operate. (Internet Archive, D.Tube, Notabug.io, and others run us in production). I'm hoping bandwidth + Filecoin will be the perfect combo for devs to replace AWS/Azure/gCloud/S3/etc. for about ~85% cheaper than current centralized rates. (As calculated by our 300GB / 100M 1kb per record test here, a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_WqBuEA7s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_WqBuEA7s8 ). Now we just need a kickawesome CPU/GPU coin that isn't slow/bottlenecked. Anybody know one that could unify with IPFS + GUN?
- woah 8y agoI’m curious what exactly you are talking about. It sounds like you were getting an 11 megabit connection for $99? What is the product?
- rickycook 8y agofrom what i understand, you get a reward for serving the data, so you miss out on a good portion of bounty. you probably COULD attack the data like that, but it would cost you which might stop large scale attacks *EDIT: and not just for serving it, but for serving it quickly. from their site: > Are you in the middle of a dense city? Do you have access to very fast Internet pipes? Have a rack in a carrier hotel? Perfect! In Filecoin's Retrieval Market, miners get rewarded for delivering content quickly. This makes the retrieval market good for miners who have low-latency, high-bandwidth connections to lots of users (but not necessarily the most disk space).
- woah 8y ago> Could a miner save on bandwidth costs by just hoarding a bunch of data, but never serving it up? I guess that they must have a solution for that, but is the solution decentralized? I've always suspected this will be the case with Filecoin. Whether or not it is profitable depends on the ratio between storage and bandwidth costs. If you can store stuff cheaply but your bandwidth is expensive, then it make sense to store junk data if your hard drives are not full. Filecoin really has two incentive mechanisms: A proof-of-storage-hardware mining scheme similar to proof of work which does not preclude storing useful data, along with a retrieval market which should make storing useful data more profitable than not in most cases.
- emagdnim2100 8y ago@ianjdarrow from the linked thread here. To clarify a little – the idea isn’t that Filecoin would ever tell anyone they have to remove data of any type. Filecoin is open-source software that tons of storage miners will use across diverse legal and moral systems, and it’s important that those miners can make decisions about how what they store and to whom they serve it. Of course, you have to do this using incentives to avoid breaking the protocol. This is actually one of the reasons it makes sense for storage and retrieval markets to be separate. If you’re being paid a fee to serve a file you have, you should rationally want to serve it unless there’s a compelling reason not to.
- tribler 8y agoWow, you have some really tough business decisions with this architecture: - Is the mentioned blacklist implemented? - Will it be enabled by default? - Will the legal entity responsible for the blacklist be US-based?
- fwip 8y agoI'd love to finally see a writeup of the "proof of spacetime" storage. Understanding that proof seems critical to understanding what use cases FileCoin will and won't work for. Edit for clarity: This is the closest I was able to find, and is short on details. https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/blob/master/proofs.md#proof-of-space-time https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/blob/master/proofs...
- dangero 8y agoI'm interested in this as well. Failure scenarios for their system are data and financial loss. For example, if there is a loophole in "proof of spacetime" then you might be paying for your data to be backed up 8 times and have it only backed up once. You find out that was the case only when that node disappears and your data is lost.
- gcbw2 8y agoThe proof of storage is even trickier. A multi-account attack (sybil?) can just store the file once, and pretend to store it N times, inflating the cost (attacker revenue) by N fold. I can't see how this is avoidable other than being an authority with insight into most of the internet traffic structure. ...Maybe it is designed to only work within china? last question was a joke, but note that every single multi-account protection requires a breach of anonymity. That's why most modern distributed protocols try to completely work around any benefit of having multiple accounts. Storage, by definition, can't.
- whyrusleeping 8y agoThe proof of replication provides assurance that for some given data D, a unique replica R is created for it. What you’re proving with the Proof of SpaceTime isn’t that you have some data, you’re proving that you have the replicas. Generating the replica is slow, so you can’t do it on the fly. I gave a talk recently that goes over some of this briefly: https://youtu.be/GZZ2G9bPXsM https://youtu.be/GZZ2G9bPXsM
- bodski 8y ago
- miguelmota 8y agoA brief for anyone wondering what Filecoin is: > Filecoin is a decentralized storage network that turns the world’s unused storage into an algorithmic market, creating a permanent, decentralized future for the web. Miners earn the native protocol token (also called “filecoin”) by providing data storage and/or retrieval. Clients pay miners to store or distribute data and to retrieve it. Filecoin is a project of Protocol Labs which also created the DAG based hypermedia protocol IPFS.
- baby 8y agoIf you add compression, it is pied piper.
- Geee 8y agoExcept FileCoin is Hooli and Sia(Coin) is Pied Piper. They're essentially reinventing Sia with money. https://sia.tech/ https://sia.tech/
- random_kris 8y agohow so? Sia has it's own token aswell
- gammateam 8y agoProtocol Labs wont integrate filecoin use into IPFS?
- miguelmota 8y agoFilecoin is essentially IPFS with incentives for data retention and distribution.
- gammateam 8y agoGiven that so many people do it all for free with very good uptime and connectivity, do you think Filecoin will be something consumers want?
- asciimo 8y agoLink to the Filecoin FAQs: https://filecoin.io/faqs/ https://filecoin.io/faqs/
- aey 8y agoWe have been Apache 2.0 open source from day one. https://github.com/solana-labs/solana https://github.com/solana-labs/solana Kudos to filecoin! And choosing Apache 2.0 as the license.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y agoOkay? You have... A thing? Probably a similar thing? If you must spam your own thing, at least tell us why we should care about your thing in contrast to the actual subject of the thread.
- aey 8y agoMy fault! Filecoin is great! We are also building a blockchain that is based around Verifiable Delay Functions and has been open source from day one. VDFs can be used to track time in a permissionless network in a way that works before consensus. Which opens up a wealth of distributed systems optimizations that involve a synchronized clock. If that sound interesting, check out https://github.com/solana-labs/solana https://github.com/solana-labs/solana
- throwaway-1283 8y agoThe fact that as a miner you have no control over whether someone stores illicit documents on your machine seems like a dealbreaker
- harshreality 8y agoThe fact that as a maintainer of a website with user-contributed content, you have no [up-front] control over whether someone stores illicit content on, and distributes it from, your server, seems like a dealbreaker.
- RandomGuyDTB 8y agousername checks out
- trevelyan 8y agoJust put it on Saito and pay for it to stay on-chain for however long you need.
- jhoechtl 8y agoThis project (I mean IPFS) startet with a very interesting goal. Now it seems they have totally derailed and went the blockchain based virtual currency way. So sad. Instead they should have invested their energy into better integrating IPFS eg. into browsers.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoLast I checked, FileCoin was just an incentive layer for IPFS, not a core part of the protocol. Close association between Protocol Labs and the Ethereum community doesn't inspire me with confidence, but as long as IPFS works without it, I'm happy.
- jude- 8y agoWhat stops a filecoin miner from storing all replicas to S3? If nothing, then why use filecoin at all? Economies of scale would dictate that the most successful filecoin miners would simply be cloud storage providers by another name (but paid in tokens instead).
- JetSpiegel 8y ago> What stops a filecoin miner from storing all replicas to S3? Being undercut by Amazon running Filecoin on their own?
- jude- 8y agoSo filecoin would just be a slower, less scalable, and more costly way to pay for S3?
- aschmahmann 8y agoit's possible that some miners choose to store their data on S3 or some other large/well known cloud provider. However, miners have other options as well. For instance, they could store their data in their own data centers or with more start-up storage providers without needing all the marketing resources that Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. have. One of the use cases I'm looking forward to seeing from Filecoin though is for regular folks with desktops that have extra storage capacity to just rent that capacity out. Right now the extra 500GB of storage space I have is just an unutilized resource waiting to be made use of. Additionally, it allows people to basically swap data capacity so I'll store 500GB of data for other people, and in return I'll use that Filecoin to pay other people to store my data. This is could be very useful for personal data backup where my primary requirement is that my data live somewhere else that is not on my computer.