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I just don't understand the logic of politicians such as Ocasio-Cortez. Amazon HQ was going to bring 25,000 high paying jobs to the area, providing growth and o

I just don't understand the logic of politicians such as Ocasio-Cortez. Amazon HQ was going to bring 25,000 high paying jobs to the area, providing growth and opportunities for her constituents. Her argument against is that the Amazon HQ would further gentrification and she was appalled by the government subsidies. So she'd rather limit new growth, prevent new jobs, and stifle wealth to prevent luxury condos and Starbucks from going up? Make no sense, she is literally preventing her constituents from moving up the economic ladder.

pxue 8y ago
the whole argument of left is flawed. she's anti status-quo but are unwilling to sacrifice short term for it. basically her dream case scenario is to tax amazon 5B and then invest 3B it to bring them to Queens.. and then rake the returns going forward. In what fantasy world would that ever play out?
clydethefrog 8y ago
Gentrification is the opposite of people moving up the economic ladder - it's the influx of more affluent residents.
- nodesocket 8y ago
  So you really think Amazon was only going to hire people that already had wealth. It's not possible that somebody making $50k a year, could land a great new position at Amazon making $150k? Cortez is shooting her democrat constituents in the foot, and living up to her affiliation of democratic-socialist.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - marrone12 8y ago
    That's not what happens though. Amazon would be recruiting people from Ivy League schools, big consulting firms, other large tech companies.
    - nodesocket 8y ago
      Disagree, this constant propagation of rigged system or unfair game is not accurate. I know lots of people who came from very little and were able to work themselves up to economic success. In fact many of the people on the Fobes list came from poor upbringing and backgrounds.
      - yourbandsucks 8y ago
        And vastly more of them are not on the Forbes list. People have done studies on income mobility and inter-generational income mobility. The studies say that it's getting worse, not better. Yes, people can move up/down, but most don't, and it's happening less over time.
        nodesocket 8y ago
        Going from the top, Jeff Bezos himself and Warren Buffet both grew up in middle class environments. Bezos worked at McDonalds as a short order cook while Buffett while young was notoriously hard working and frugal. Buffett would take his paper route earnings (mere dollars) and invest in stocks. Anyway, I don't have the resources and time to go through the entire Forbes list, but I suspect there are a lot more people than most would believe and perhaps like to acknowledge from middle class or "lower" class environments.
        yourbandsucks 8y ago
        Do I really need to explain anecdotes vs data? Income is a strongly inherited trait. Look at this absurdly linear plot in section 2: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/01/11/raj-chetty-in-14-charts-big-findings-on-opportunity-and-mobility-we-should-know/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/01... The only deviations from pure correlation are that the extremely poor and rich are EVEN MORE likely to be extremely poor or rich.
        eanzenberg 8y ago
        The US (I assume you're talking about the US) intragenerational mobility is actually quite strong, meaning people have the ability to impact their own economic outcomes if they choose, or in other words, the American dream (TM). Decreased intergenerational mobility in the US is actually a function of decreased fraction of families earning below 100k, meaning, less people by fraction in the lower and middle class as they've pushed up into the upper >100k tier.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  Actually no, gentrification causes existing homeowners to increase their property values. It literally gives the existing community the opportunity to move up the economic ladder.
  - britch 8y ago
    Yes and NYC is known for the many home owners and lack of renters. Sounds like it'd be good for landlords, I'm not sure about the person living paycheck to paycheck to make rent.
  - pwagland 8y ago
    _Only_ if the existing community is _also_ the existing landowners. This is not always the case, often you have a large renting population. These renters only see there costs go up, not their assets.
  - AngryData 8y ago
    With that in mind, NYC is probably the worst possible place for that since almost nobody owns their own property there, it is mostly all rented out by multi-millionaires.
  - snowwrestler 8y ago
    Increasing property value shows up on the balance sheet and the only way to access it is to sell the property and leave, or take on debt. Increasing property values also mean increasing property taxes, which show up in expenses and are due every year whether or not you have the money to pay them. Does taking out a home equity line to pay your taxes sound like a good idea to you? Me neither, and that's why rising property values are often not welcomed by residents who are not already financially well-off. This does not even get into the impact on renters, who might face being evicted so a property owner can sell, or rents rising faster than their wages.
  - maxsilver 8y ago
    > Actually no, gentrification causes existing homeowners to increase their property values. Property values are not necessarily wealth. It is entirely possible to gentrify existing homeowners out of their homes despite increasing their property values -- this moves homeowners down the economic ladder. Yes, selling their house technically puts fresh cash in their pocket, but only by drastically increasing their cost of living and by making them search for new housing (which by definition will have to be somewhere cheaper than their current neighborhood, since by definition they can no longer afford their current one). All of this is usually a large net loss in total wealth, despite the sale of their property. Owning a gentrifying home gives you the illusion of wealth building, but if you live in that home, it's really just lifestyle inflation until you sell out. None of the above is a hypothetical, either. That is an accurate description of how real-world Gentrification usually plays out in Midwestern/Flyover USA today.
- cco 8y ago
  Where in your mind would the affluent residents live?
thetinguy 8y ago
Do you think there are 25,000 high skilled workers in new york sitting around waiting for Amazon to show up? No, those workers are in high demand. So the only option is too pull from outside the region further driving up the cost of housing. Its pure numbers. What about the low skill jobs? Amazon doesn't employ cleaners and other low skill workers. They contract those jobs out, so the low skill employees see no benefit from working at Amazon anyway. Even if we pretend that Amazon can only employ native new yorkers, there aren't enough to go around. So they'll be taking jobs from other organizations, like small businesses, who can't afford to compete with Amazon. So, what's the benefit to new york? Yea, there are 25000 new jobs. But the choice isn't 25000 jobs or no jobs. Its 25000 jobs with amazon and some number of jobs from other businesses. Other businesses will employ those high skill workers because there aren't enough to go around.
- JDiculous 8y ago
  > Amazon doesn't employ cleaners and other low skill workers. They contract those jobs out Is this any different from how other companies do it? > they'll be taking jobs from other organizations, like small businesses, who can't afford to compete with Amazon. How many small businesses in LIC are competing with Amazon for business/workers? Does LIC even have tech jobs? I lived in NYC for 5 years working in tech, and I don't recall ever interviewing for a tech job in LIC. > So, what's the benefit to new york? 25,000 jobs with $100k+ salaries. I get that there aren't enough native native New Yorkers to fill the jobs, but since when is NYC not a city of transplants? Amazon or not, this is already the state of things, and I don't see that changing. I mean LIC is already a ghost town of glass luxury residential apartment towers. > the choice isn't 25000 jobs or no jobs. Its 25000 jobs with amazon and some number of jobs from other businesses. Other businesses will employ those high skill workers because there aren't enough to go around. Is there a strong demand to build out jobs in LIC matching the 25k that Amazon would've? I'm not being facetious, genuinely wondering. I only went to LIC a few times, and my impression was that it seemed like a ghost town of glass luxury residential apartment towers. I don't recall seeing a thriving office/commercial center. Seems like everyone just commutes into Manhattan to work.
- Androider 8y ago
  Literally tens of thousands of students graduate each year from NYU (16K alone) and other colleges in the area. You're right that skilled workers don't sit around waiting for jobs to show up. They'll go to where the jobs are, which for tech still largely means the West Coast. And I say that as a NYC resident and tech entrepreneur. The tech scene in NY is weak, and non-existent across the river in LIC. Having an Amazon HQ in LIC would have been a great anchor around which to build a stronger startup scene: If your startup fails, hey, there's always Amazon to fall back on (instead of just the financial sector). But I'm sure the students are actually grateful that they were spared from Amazon and living close to home, and that the Bay Area residents will continue to welcome each new batch with open arms!
joejerryronnie 8y ago
AOC’s logic is very straight forward. She wants to take money from you and I through massive taxation and redistribute it to her low income constituents through massive social programs. Don’t let her “soak the rich” bait and switch rhetoric fool you, the middle class always pays for new government spending.

pxue 8y ago

the whole argument of left is flawed. she's anti status-quo but are unwilling to sacrifice short term for it. basically her dream case scenario is to tax amazon 5B and then invest 3B it to bring them to Queens.. and then rake the returns going forward. In what fantasy world would that ever play out?

clydethefrog 8y ago

Gentrification is the opposite of people moving up the economic ladder - it's the influx of more affluent residents.

nodesocket 8y ago
So you really think Amazon was only going to hire people that already had wealth. It's not possible that somebody making $50k a year, could land a great new position at Amazon making $150k? Cortez is shooting her democrat constituents in the foot, and living up to her affiliation of democratic-socialist.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- marrone12 8y ago
  That's not what happens though. Amazon would be recruiting people from Ivy League schools, big consulting firms, other large tech companies.
  - nodesocket 8y ago
    Disagree, this constant propagation of rigged system or unfair game is not accurate. I know lots of people who came from very little and were able to work themselves up to economic success. In fact many of the people on the Fobes list came from poor upbringing and backgrounds.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      And vastly more of them are not on the Forbes list. People have done studies on income mobility and inter-generational income mobility. The studies say that it's getting worse, not better. Yes, people can move up/down, but most don't, and it's happening less over time.
      - nodesocket 8y ago
        Going from the top, Jeff Bezos himself and Warren Buffet both grew up in middle class environments. Bezos worked at McDonalds as a short order cook while Buffett while young was notoriously hard working and frugal. Buffett would take his paper route earnings (mere dollars) and invest in stocks. Anyway, I don't have the resources and time to go through the entire Forbes list, but I suspect there are a lot more people than most would believe and perhaps like to acknowledge from middle class or "lower" class environments.
        yourbandsucks 8y ago
        Do I really need to explain anecdotes vs data? Income is a strongly inherited trait. Look at this absurdly linear plot in section 2: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/01/11/raj-chetty-in-14-charts-big-findings-on-opportunity-and-mobility-we-should-know/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/01... The only deviations from pure correlation are that the extremely poor and rich are EVEN MORE likely to be extremely poor or rich.
      - eanzenberg 8y ago
        The US (I assume you're talking about the US) intragenerational mobility is actually quite strong, meaning people have the ability to impact their own economic outcomes if they choose, or in other words, the American dream (TM). Decreased intergenerational mobility in the US is actually a function of decreased fraction of families earning below 100k, meaning, less people by fraction in the lower and middle class as they've pushed up into the upper >100k tier.
eanzenberg 8y ago
Actually no, gentrification causes existing homeowners to increase their property values. It literally gives the existing community the opportunity to move up the economic ladder.
- britch 8y ago
  Yes and NYC is known for the many home owners and lack of renters. Sounds like it'd be good for landlords, I'm not sure about the person living paycheck to paycheck to make rent.
- pwagland 8y ago
  _Only_ if the existing community is _also_ the existing landowners. This is not always the case, often you have a large renting population. These renters only see there costs go up, not their assets.
- AngryData 8y ago
  With that in mind, NYC is probably the worst possible place for that since almost nobody owns their own property there, it is mostly all rented out by multi-millionaires.
- snowwrestler 8y ago
  Increasing property value shows up on the balance sheet and the only way to access it is to sell the property and leave, or take on debt. Increasing property values also mean increasing property taxes, which show up in expenses and are due every year whether or not you have the money to pay them. Does taking out a home equity line to pay your taxes sound like a good idea to you? Me neither, and that's why rising property values are often not welcomed by residents who are not already financially well-off. This does not even get into the impact on renters, who might face being evicted so a property owner can sell, or rents rising faster than their wages.
- maxsilver 8y ago
  > Actually no, gentrification causes existing homeowners to increase their property values. Property values are not necessarily wealth. It is entirely possible to gentrify existing homeowners out of their homes despite increasing their property values -- this moves homeowners down the economic ladder. Yes, selling their house technically puts fresh cash in their pocket, but only by drastically increasing their cost of living and by making them search for new housing (which by definition will have to be somewhere cheaper than their current neighborhood, since by definition they can no longer afford their current one). All of this is usually a large net loss in total wealth, despite the sale of their property. Owning a gentrifying home gives you the illusion of wealth building, but if you live in that home, it's really just lifestyle inflation until you sell out. None of the above is a hypothetical, either. That is an accurate description of how real-world Gentrification usually plays out in Midwestern/Flyover USA today.
cco 8y ago
Where in your mind would the affluent residents live?

thetinguy 8y ago

Do you think there are 25,000 high skilled workers in new york sitting around waiting for Amazon to show up? No, those workers are in high demand. So the only option is too pull from outside the region further driving up the cost of housing. Its pure numbers. What about the low skill jobs? Amazon doesn't employ cleaners and other low skill workers. They contract those jobs out, so the low skill employees see no benefit from working at Amazon anyway. Even if we pretend that Amazon can only employ native new yorkers, there aren't enough to go around. So they'll be taking jobs from other organizations, like small businesses, who can't afford to compete with Amazon. So, what's the benefit to new york? Yea, there are 25000 new jobs. But the choice isn't 25000 jobs or no jobs. Its 25000 jobs with amazon and some number of jobs from other businesses. Other businesses will employ those high skill workers because there aren't enough to go around.

JDiculous 8y ago
> Amazon doesn't employ cleaners and other low skill workers. They contract those jobs out Is this any different from how other companies do it? > they'll be taking jobs from other organizations, like small businesses, who can't afford to compete with Amazon. How many small businesses in LIC are competing with Amazon for business/workers? Does LIC even have tech jobs? I lived in NYC for 5 years working in tech, and I don't recall ever interviewing for a tech job in LIC. > So, what's the benefit to new york? 25,000 jobs with $100k+ salaries. I get that there aren't enough native native New Yorkers to fill the jobs, but since when is NYC not a city of transplants? Amazon or not, this is already the state of things, and I don't see that changing. I mean LIC is already a ghost town of glass luxury residential apartment towers. > the choice isn't 25000 jobs or no jobs. Its 25000 jobs with amazon and some number of jobs from other businesses. Other businesses will employ those high skill workers because there aren't enough to go around. Is there a strong demand to build out jobs in LIC matching the 25k that Amazon would've? I'm not being facetious, genuinely wondering. I only went to LIC a few times, and my impression was that it seemed like a ghost town of glass luxury residential apartment towers. I don't recall seeing a thriving office/commercial center. Seems like everyone just commutes into Manhattan to work.
Androider 8y ago
Literally tens of thousands of students graduate each year from NYU (16K alone) and other colleges in the area. You're right that skilled workers don't sit around waiting for jobs to show up. They'll go to where the jobs are, which for tech still largely means the West Coast. And I say that as a NYC resident and tech entrepreneur. The tech scene in NY is weak, and non-existent across the river in LIC. Having an Amazon HQ in LIC would have been a great anchor around which to build a stronger startup scene: If your startup fails, hey, there's always Amazon to fall back on (instead of just the financial sector). But I'm sure the students are actually grateful that they were spared from Amazon and living close to home, and that the Bay Area residents will continue to welcome each new batch with open arms!

joejerryronnie 8y ago

AOC’s logic is very straight forward. She wants to take money from you and I through massive taxation and redistribute it to her low income constituents through massive social programs. Don’t let her “soak the rich” bait and switch rhetoric fool you, the middle class always pays for new government spending.