5 ms·

If it was primarily a deal to ease the regulatory burden of building such a big thing, I'd be all for it. Admittedly NY has an issue now with too many layers of

If it was primarily a deal to ease the regulatory burden of building such a big thing, I'd be all for it. Admittedly NY has an issue now with too many layers of bureaucracy. But this isn't entirely what it is about. It was also about large tax concessions when plenty of large companies are hiring tech in NYC without any of them. A skilled employee in NYC does not last very long at all on the job market. The 25k employee campus thing was a sham that was geared to an area like NY from the start. They could never move to a smaller area and still get who they need at that scale. The commodity these days is skilled workforce. Amazon will still be where they can get that commodity, economic incentives aren't needed. Cash is not the limiting factor it is the people they need. It was a smart business move to try to extract some cash too but they did not need that to expand in NY.

jhall1468 8y ago
Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions. Amazon got nothing special outside of reduced regulatory burden. Why is this not understood? This same subsidy is now going to go to 15 companies who all probably pay less on average than Amazon. There are skilled workforces outside of NY, believe it or not. And they aren't going to go through the regulatory burdens to expand NY to a major campus, since that's really what this was about. To be clear, since this point is being missed by so many people: This wasn't a special deal outside of the reduced regulatory burden. Any company that meets the eligibility requirements will get these exact same "subsidies". What happened here is a bunch of local politicians and local people who are absolutely clueless about how corporate tax reductions work pushed against something that's still going to happen just, at least potentially, not with a high paying company like Amazon.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > since this point is being missed by so many people I'm not so sure that people are actually missing this point.
- danenania 8y ago
  I see what you're saying, but Amazon pretty much did that to themselves by making the whole thing such a public spectacle. Whether or not they were offered a special deal, that's the impression everyone got, and it should have been predictable that they'd provoke a lot more political backlash with this approach.
- specialp 8y ago
  Not many corporations I know of get a deal brokered by the mayor and governor privately with multibillion dollar cut after a large spectacle. I realize you might think differently as an Amazon employee.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    Are you aware that there are existing tax programs in NYC, and that most of the money "given" to Amazon came from those existing programs that are available to anyone who qualify?
  - jhall1468 8y ago
    My status as an Amazon employee is irrelevant, and I don't think the circumstantial ad hominem really brings anything to the discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 The grants are all based on the size of the deal, and the reason this one was so large is because the number of employees was so large.
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  > any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions Interesting if true, but I don't think people are going to accept it on your say-so. I recommend digging up a citation.
  - jhall1468 8y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374
- Paul-ish 8y ago
  > To be clear, since this point is being missed by so many people: This wasn't a special deal outside of the reduced regulatory burden. Any company that meets the eligibility requirements will get these exact same "subsidies". Is there an article the explains this?
- yug_blop 8y ago
  please cite a source
  - jhall1468 8y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 They did a vastly superior job than I could do.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  >"Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions." Really? Let look at what was offered: 1 $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and 2 $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) 3 $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits 4 $505 million in a capital grant Yes the first 3 are existing programs. But the idea that those sums or anything remotely close to them would simply be made available to any company moving to NY is comical at best. Now lets look at number 4, a 505 million dollar capital grant. That's a pure giveaway compliment of the tax payer. And let's remember that both the city and state governments put together dedicated teams to find this money for Amazon. This was in addition to the work the city and state did for give Amazon data, such as "detailed information on the availability of machine-learning specialists, user-experience designers and hardware engineers."[1] There is no way any of this is available to "any company moving to NY." [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/technology/amazon-new-york-hq2-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/technology/amazon-new-yor...
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    > Yes the first 3 are existing programs. But the idea that those sums or anything remotely close to them would simply be made available to any company moving to NY is comical at best. > $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) That works out to $35,880 per employee that Amazon promised. Per the REAP program website[1], the credits available are $3000 per employee for 12 years. That actually works out to slightly more per employee ($36,000). So yes, any company not currently in NYC that creates 25,000 jobs in one of the designated areas would get the $897MM in benefits. > $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) ICAP is a property tax abatement available to any company willing to redevelop qualifying properties[2]. The value of the abatement is based on the final value of the property and which benefit schedule[3] it qualifies for. Any company willing to put in the same amount of redevelopment in one of the designated areas as Amazon was will get the same abatement value. > $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits I don't have the time at the moment to calculate how this was arrived at, but looking at the overview of credits available[4] it appears to follow similar formulas as the NYC programs. In short, I do not see it as "comical" by any measure that any company offering to create 25,000 new jobs and redevelop hundreds of millions of dollars worth of property in designated areas would get these same values. Amazon didn't get these numbers because they were Amazon, but because of the scale of what they proposed to do. Whether that is a good idea to offer to any company is open for debate. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/business-reap.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/business-reap.pag... [2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/benefits-industrial-and-commercial-abatement-program-icap.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/benefits-industri... [3] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/icap/icap_benefit_schedule.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/icap/icap_... [4] https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program

jhall1468 8y ago

Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions. Amazon got nothing special outside of reduced regulatory burden. Why is this not understood? This same subsidy is now going to go to 15 companies who all probably pay less on average than Amazon. There are skilled workforces outside of NY, believe it or not. And they aren't going to go through the regulatory burdens to expand NY to a major campus, since that's really what this was about. To be clear, since this point is being missed by so many people: This wasn't a special deal outside of the reduced regulatory burden. Any company that meets the eligibility requirements will get these exact same "subsidies". What happened here is a bunch of local politicians and local people who are absolutely clueless about how corporate tax reductions work pushed against something that's still going to happen just, at least potentially, not with a high paying company like Amazon.

JohnFen 8y ago
> since this point is being missed by so many people I'm not so sure that people are actually missing this point.
danenania 8y ago
I see what you're saying, but Amazon pretty much did that to themselves by making the whole thing such a public spectacle. Whether or not they were offered a special deal, that's the impression everyone got, and it should have been predictable that they'd provoke a lot more political backlash with this approach.
specialp 8y ago
Not many corporations I know of get a deal brokered by the mayor and governor privately with multibillion dollar cut after a large spectacle. I realize you might think differently as an Amazon employee.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Are you aware that there are existing tax programs in NYC, and that most of the money "given" to Amazon came from those existing programs that are available to anyone who qualify?
- jhall1468 8y ago
  My status as an Amazon employee is irrelevant, and I don't think the circumstantial ad hominem really brings anything to the discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 The grants are all based on the size of the deal, and the reason this one was so large is because the number of employees was so large.
ScottBurson 8y ago
> any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions Interesting if true, but I don't think people are going to accept it on your say-so. I recommend digging up a citation.
- jhall1468 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374
Paul-ish 8y ago
> To be clear, since this point is being missed by so many people: This wasn't a special deal outside of the reduced regulatory burden. Any company that meets the eligibility requirements will get these exact same "subsidies". Is there an article the explains this?
yug_blop 8y ago
please cite a source
- jhall1468 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19165374 They did a vastly superior job than I could do.
bogomipz 8y ago
>"Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions." Really? Let look at what was offered: 1 $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and 2 $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) 3 $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits 4 $505 million in a capital grant Yes the first 3 are existing programs. But the idea that those sums or anything remotely close to them would simply be made available to any company moving to NY is comical at best. Now lets look at number 4, a 505 million dollar capital grant. That's a pure giveaway compliment of the tax payer. And let's remember that both the city and state governments put together dedicated teams to find this money for Amazon. This was in addition to the work the city and state did for give Amazon data, such as "detailed information on the availability of machine-learning specialists, user-experience designers and hardware engineers."[1] There is no way any of this is available to "any company moving to NY." [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/technology/amazon-new-york-hq2-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/technology/amazon-new-yor...
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  > Yes the first 3 are existing programs. But the idea that those sums or anything remotely close to them would simply be made available to any company moving to NY is comical at best. > $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) That works out to $35,880 per employee that Amazon promised. Per the REAP program website[1], the credits available are $3000 per employee for 12 years. That actually works out to slightly more per employee ($36,000). So yes, any company not currently in NYC that creates 25,000 jobs in one of the designated areas would get the $897MM in benefits. > $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) ICAP is a property tax abatement available to any company willing to redevelop qualifying properties[2]. The value of the abatement is based on the final value of the property and which benefit schedule[3] it qualifies for. Any company willing to put in the same amount of redevelopment in one of the designated areas as Amazon was will get the same abatement value. > $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits I don't have the time at the moment to calculate how this was arrived at, but looking at the overview of credits available[4] it appears to follow similar formulas as the NYC programs. In short, I do not see it as "comical" by any measure that any company offering to create 25,000 new jobs and redevelop hundreds of millions of dollars worth of property in designated areas would get these same values. Amazon didn't get these numbers because they were Amazon, but because of the scale of what they proposed to do. Whether that is a good idea to offer to any company is open for debate. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/business-reap.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/business-reap.pag... [2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/benefits-industrial-and-commercial-abatement-program-icap.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/benefits-industri... [3] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/icap/icap_benefit_schedule.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/icap/icap_... [4] https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program