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And 99% of the world would act in the same way if they had the luxury of that problem. I understand why Leftist populists love attributing some sort of excepti

And 99% of the world would act in the same way if they had the luxury of that problem. I understand why Leftist populists love attributing some sort of exceptional immorality to the wealthy, but people act on incentives. Give them an incentive to leave and they will leave.

octonion 8y ago
If you live in California, you obey California laws or you go to California jail. If you don't agree with what California has decided is necessary for a healthy society, you have states like Mississippi and Louisiana to choose from. Good luck finding a high-paying job there.
- lightedman 8y ago
  "Good luck finding a high-paying job there." I guess you have no clue what jobs actually exist in those states. They're the same jobs that exist in every other state. Then to boot, there are plenty of high-paying jobs which exist in those states which generally do not exist in many others, like offshore oil rig jobs.
- Jhndb 8y ago
  Or all the other states with plenty of high paying tech jobs
- chrshawkes 8y ago
  Ridiculous comment. I live in VA and we're doing quite well thank you. Silicon Valley incomes without the state corruption. Our problem is electing a decent governor apparently. I'll take VA over California every time.
- j-c-hewitt 8y ago
  Nonsense. They just send collectors after you unless the delinquency is epic in scale, and even then, they just send better collectors after you unless you show some kind of contempt. What a bizarre mentality. Enjoy having a large portion of your 'high paying job' eaten up by real estate costs and taxes while people who move out of CA laugh at you all the way to the bank.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  I'm enjoying my high paying job in Austin while paying no state income tax, thanks. Moved from SD two years ago, it's great.
- larrywright 8y ago
  See, the thing is the cost of living in those states is actually reasonable. It doesn’t cost $1M for a “starter home”. So we don’t need a “high paying job”, we just need one that pays a reasonable amount. Also, by all accounts CA doesn’t have a healthy society. (for the record, I don’t live in the states you mocked, but I live in Illinois which has a similar cost of living)
- at-fates-hands 8y ago
  > Good luck finding a high-paying job there. Kansas has the lowest cost of living in the country. You don't need to have a high paying job to be living like a king. I remember having a two bedroom apartment to myself and paying around $500/month. My two friends who settled there found 3 bedroom, 3 bathroom houses for under $300K. They were able to put down around $40K and had a monthly mortgage of around 1K. They were both in the tech sector there and were making around 80K each which is pretty low compared to SV or other states, but because the cost of living was so low, they were living rather comfortable.
sigi45 8y ago
Or someone who has already a shitton of money just stop trying to get the most out of it Everytime.
kristianc 8y ago
Quite - Leftists reframe the question "Why do you need that money?" when the one we should be asking is "Why is the state entitled to it?"
- untog 8y ago
  Because very often the answer is "the state enabled you to earn that money in the first place, moving things on its roads, and employing workers educated by its school system, while under the protection of its police force and fire service"
  - vidarh 8y ago
    I find it enlightening to discuss with people what they would do if they could unilaterally secede. I find offering the option quite appealing, in the sense that it would hold government strictly to account if it annoys sufficiently large minorities to warrant large splits. But what the people opposing taxes often tends to forget is that if you want to argue that society should be organized in a fully voluntary way, then the rest of society don't owe you access to any of their public services either if you're not prepared to agree to their terms for interacting with you. If someone is ok with taking the consequences of that, then, hey, let them, but in my experience the moment you point out the likely consequences, there is a tendency to start crying about how unfair it would be when other people want to exercise their freedoms to refuse to deal with someone not prepared to pay their share. In other words, most of this boils down to wanting to be free to pick and choose how they interact with wider society, without wanting the rest of society to be able to pick and choose how to interact with them.
- skh 8y ago
  Your question is just as bad. Here’s the framing I prefer. 1. Government is necessary since some things are best run by public services and without a for-profit motive. 2. What are these things? 3. How much money should be raised to properly run these things? 4. What is the optimum tax rate/policy to achieve this goal?
  - 8y ago
justin66 8y ago
> people act on incentives. Give them an incentive to leave and they will leave. This is a very silly statement. The small fraction of people who leave has increased a little bit in size.
vidarh 8y ago
Belgium has the highest tax burden of any OECD country. According to OECDs annual Taxing Wages report for 2017, Belgiums total tax wedge for an average earner (the total tax wedge includes employers payroll taxes) was 54%, compared to an OECD average of 36% (US is at 31.7%). The direct "employee visible" part of that is 40.7% vs an OECD average of 25.5% (US 26%). Based on your line of thinking, people should be fleeing Belgium in huge numbers. Belgium is in the EU and has land borders with Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and France. Germany is not far off in taxes, but France is at 29.1%, Luxembourg at 31%, the Netherlands at 30.4%. Anyone with Belgian citizenship can work and live in any of these countries without having to apply for any visa or work permit. (so far that also applies to the UK, over the channel, but given Brexit I ignored it) Most Belgians speak French or Dutch, so language should not stop them. Yet, despite these rather significant monetary incentives to even move across the border, within a short driving distance from their current location, to countries with the same language, there is somehow not a massive amount of Belgians fleeing the country. Note that this is tax burden for an average tax payer. Not marginal rates paid by the very few. In other words: Sure, people act on incentives, but unsurprisingly peoples decisions about where to live are not only down to a few percentage points of taxation. Some will move, many won't, and yes, that is something to take into account when setting tax policies.

octonion 8y ago

If you live in California, you obey California laws or you go to California jail. If you don't agree with what California has decided is necessary for a healthy society, you have states like Mississippi and Louisiana to choose from. Good luck finding a high-paying job there.

lightedman 8y ago
"Good luck finding a high-paying job there." I guess you have no clue what jobs actually exist in those states. They're the same jobs that exist in every other state. Then to boot, there are plenty of high-paying jobs which exist in those states which generally do not exist in many others, like offshore oil rig jobs.
Jhndb 8y ago
Or all the other states with plenty of high paying tech jobs
chrshawkes 8y ago
Ridiculous comment. I live in VA and we're doing quite well thank you. Silicon Valley incomes without the state corruption. Our problem is electing a decent governor apparently. I'll take VA over California every time.
j-c-hewitt 8y ago
Nonsense. They just send collectors after you unless the delinquency is epic in scale, and even then, they just send better collectors after you unless you show some kind of contempt. What a bizarre mentality. Enjoy having a large portion of your 'high paying job' eaten up by real estate costs and taxes while people who move out of CA laugh at you all the way to the bank.
EpicEng 8y ago
I'm enjoying my high paying job in Austin while paying no state income tax, thanks. Moved from SD two years ago, it's great.
larrywright 8y ago
See, the thing is the cost of living in those states is actually reasonable. It doesn’t cost $1M for a “starter home”. So we don’t need a “high paying job”, we just need one that pays a reasonable amount. Also, by all accounts CA doesn’t have a healthy society. (for the record, I don’t live in the states you mocked, but I live in Illinois which has a similar cost of living)
at-fates-hands 8y ago
> Good luck finding a high-paying job there. Kansas has the lowest cost of living in the country. You don't need to have a high paying job to be living like a king. I remember having a two bedroom apartment to myself and paying around $500/month. My two friends who settled there found 3 bedroom, 3 bathroom houses for under $300K. They were able to put down around $40K and had a monthly mortgage of around 1K. They were both in the tech sector there and were making around 80K each which is pretty low compared to SV or other states, but because the cost of living was so low, they were living rather comfortable.

sigi45 8y ago

Or someone who has already a shitton of money just stop trying to get the most out of it Everytime.

kristianc 8y ago

Quite - Leftists reframe the question "Why do you need that money?" when the one we should be asking is "Why is the state entitled to it?"

untog 8y ago
Because very often the answer is "the state enabled you to earn that money in the first place, moving things on its roads, and employing workers educated by its school system, while under the protection of its police force and fire service"
- vidarh 8y ago
  I find it enlightening to discuss with people what they would do if they could unilaterally secede. I find offering the option quite appealing, in the sense that it would hold government strictly to account if it annoys sufficiently large minorities to warrant large splits. But what the people opposing taxes often tends to forget is that if you want to argue that society should be organized in a fully voluntary way, then the rest of society don't owe you access to any of their public services either if you're not prepared to agree to their terms for interacting with you. If someone is ok with taking the consequences of that, then, hey, let them, but in my experience the moment you point out the likely consequences, there is a tendency to start crying about how unfair it would be when other people want to exercise their freedoms to refuse to deal with someone not prepared to pay their share. In other words, most of this boils down to wanting to be free to pick and choose how they interact with wider society, without wanting the rest of society to be able to pick and choose how to interact with them.
skh 8y ago
Your question is just as bad. Here’s the framing I prefer. 1. Government is necessary since some things are best run by public services and without a for-profit motive. 2. What are these things? 3. How much money should be raised to properly run these things? 4. What is the optimum tax rate/policy to achieve this goal?
- 8y ago

justin66 8y ago

> people act on incentives. Give them an incentive to leave and they will leave. This is a very silly statement. The small fraction of people who leave has increased a little bit in size.

vidarh 8y ago

Belgium has the highest tax burden of any OECD country. According to OECDs annual Taxing Wages report for 2017, Belgiums total tax wedge for an average earner (the total tax wedge includes employers payroll taxes) was 54%, compared to an OECD average of 36% (US is at 31.7%). The direct "employee visible" part of that is 40.7% vs an OECD average of 25.5% (US 26%). Based on your line of thinking, people should be fleeing Belgium in huge numbers. Belgium is in the EU and has land borders with Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and France. Germany is not far off in taxes, but France is at 29.1%, Luxembourg at 31%, the Netherlands at 30.4%. Anyone with Belgian citizenship can work and live in any of these countries without having to apply for any visa or work permit. (so far that also applies to the UK, over the channel, but given Brexit I ignored it) Most Belgians speak French or Dutch, so language should not stop them. Yet, despite these rather significant monetary incentives to even move across the border, within a short driving distance from their current location, to countries with the same language, there is somehow not a massive amount of Belgians fleeing the country. Note that this is tax burden for an average tax payer. Not marginal rates paid by the very few. In other words: Sure, people act on incentives, but unsurprisingly peoples decisions about where to live are not only down to a few percentage points of taxation. Some will move, many won't, and yes, that is something to take into account when setting tax policies.