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The strongest argument against Usury is that it creates an unlimited claim on the future labor of the borrower making it into a kind of forced servitude. We rig

The strongest argument against Usury is that it creates an unlimited claim on the future labor of the borrower making it into a kind of forced servitude. We rightly don't allow people to sell themselves into slavery, why then do we permit this kind of unlimited liability?

leetcrew 8y ago
> The strongest argument against Usury is that it creates an unlimited claim on the future labor of the borrower making it into a kind of forced servitude. payday loans are a pretty distasteful business but you are exaggerating quite a bit. unsecured personal loans like this are almost always dischargeable in bankruptcy, unless the judge can be convinced that the borrower never intended to pay them back.
- ticviking 8y ago
  Bankruptcy is how we sever that claim, and requires a legal process. If we as a society didn't have a bankruptcy process what would the consequence of this kind of lending be?
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    obviously society would be a lot more oppressive to debtors if bankruptcy didn't exist. maybe I interpreted your use of "claim" more strongly than you intended, but I am mainly replying to the sentiment in this thread that payday loans create an unbreakable cycle of enslavement / indentured servitude. they are abusive loans for sure, but they're not that bad. if you already have no assets and terrible credit, you don't have much to lose by filing for chapter 7 and it will be pretty difficult for the lender to avoid having the debt discharged.
    - ticviking 8y ago
      Totally fair, I was also thinking of this kind of claim in "An-capistan" without a state enforcing bankruptcy as an option. The imagined regulatory environment is critical to how we think about his kind of thing. I do think you underestimate how accessible bankruptcy is for most people who are served by payday lenders.The folks I know who are forced into that market aren't well educated, and may not even know where to begin. I find that they view bankruptcy as a way "fat cats like Trump get out of the debts while working stiffs have to pay" As a tool it's really only available to middle and upper-middle class Americans.

leetcrew 8y ago

> The strongest argument against Usury is that it creates an unlimited claim on the future labor of the borrower making it into a kind of forced servitude. payday loans are a pretty distasteful business but you are exaggerating quite a bit. unsecured personal loans like this are almost always dischargeable in bankruptcy, unless the judge can be convinced that the borrower never intended to pay them back.

ticviking 8y ago
Bankruptcy is how we sever that claim, and requires a legal process. If we as a society didn't have a bankruptcy process what would the consequence of this kind of lending be?
- leetcrew 8y ago
  obviously society would be a lot more oppressive to debtors if bankruptcy didn't exist. maybe I interpreted your use of "claim" more strongly than you intended, but I am mainly replying to the sentiment in this thread that payday loans create an unbreakable cycle of enslavement / indentured servitude. they are abusive loans for sure, but they're not that bad. if you already have no assets and terrible credit, you don't have much to lose by filing for chapter 7 and it will be pretty difficult for the lender to avoid having the debt discharged.
  - ticviking 8y ago
    Totally fair, I was also thinking of this kind of claim in "An-capistan" without a state enforcing bankruptcy as an option. The imagined regulatory environment is critical to how we think about his kind of thing. I do think you underestimate how accessible bankruptcy is for most people who are served by payday lenders.The folks I know who are forced into that market aren't well educated, and may not even know where to begin. I find that they view bankruptcy as a way "fat cats like Trump get out of the debts while working stiffs have to pay" As a tool it's really only available to middle and upper-middle class Americans.